OT: US President (US Dom Players only)

[chrispedersen]

I agree with a lot you say here.

Originally Posted by Boronx

Bush's illegal operations in his War on Terror will lead to the eventual dismantling of almost everything he has done, including compromising any cases to be made against terrorists.

Don't agree much about this paragraph, interested in what mean by 'illegal operations'

Efforts against international terrorist need to based on a legal frame work. If current laws are inadequate, the hard work needed to improve it must be part of the anti-terrorism process. Such an effort would last far beyond the administration that pursued it and would have the US courts aligned with it instead of against it. A law based reaction would have de-legitimize terrorism as a pollitical tool where Bush's reaction to terrorism (torture, illegal invasions) has legitimized it.

Completely agree.

Within the current system of laws: If a prisoner is a fighter, he should be held as a POW with full red cross access, without torture. The kid held at Gitmo because he threw a grenade at American troops should instead just be a regular POW.

Why instead? By which I mean to say, why do you think he is something other than a regular POW at Gitmo?

POWs should be held until the Taliban surrenders and Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan are all wiped out.

I agree; I might even be more liberal than you. I would be inclined to release them into the custody of a functioning state - if that state could demonstrate it had control of its territory; respected basic human rights; perhaps had an amnesty program for its fighters.

If someone is a suspected terrorist, a case should be made and they should be tried in federal court. If acquitted, they should be returned to their own country or to a POW camp as appropriate. If, like Uighurs from China, they are acquitted and they are not POWS, but their home country would kill them or torture them, they should be released in the US through normal political asylum procedures.

Federal courts as constituted don't have jurisdiction - this is one of the many reasons why the Nuremberg trials were convened for WWII.

Letting terrorists jump the queue for asylum in the US is a bad idea. And again, the US has more than 250 such individuals approved for release - but no country wishes to *take* them.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Liberte, egalite, fraternite are the french ideals, not American ones. America has never pretended otherwise. What America has always held is that if you work hard, keep your nose clean and invent a better widget - then you too can become filthy rich.

What happened to "with liberty and justice for all"?
Not relevant, I guess. It's all about making money.


Guess I should move to France, then.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by thejeff

What happened to "with liberty and justice for all"?
Not relevant, I guess. It's all about making money.


Guess I should move to France, then.

I was speaking about Egalite - or egalitarianism from llamas post. But I agree it wasn't clear. I almost put 'we are the 'land of opportunity' not the land of 'egalitarianism''

[Tichy]

As best I remember, the "egalité" slogan indicates equal rights before the law, not economic equality.

I guess it depends on how deeply the Rousseauan economic critique in the Discourse on Inequality influenced them. I've always thought that On the Social Contract was the influential text there, which, unlike Locke, doesn't enshrine an individual right to private property as inviolate, but doesn't end up with the redistributionism you might expect from the Discourse.

[Gregstrom]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Your own country just extended the amount of time a terror suspect may be held without requiring the surpervision of the courts, or charges. Doubled it didn't it?

No, and no. Check your facts.

[llamabeast]

Your own country just extended the amount of time a terror suspect may be held without requiring the surpervision of the courts, or charges. Doubled it didn't it?

They tried to extend it from 28 to 42 days, and failed dramatically, causing the government enormous problems in the process. Quite a contrast from holding people without trial for several years. I think really that underlines my point very effectively.

Also, bringing up the nazis is hardly fair. That is very much in the past and their behaviour is universally reviled, most especially in Germany.

Is guilt really assumed until proven innocent in France? That sounds very unlikely, but I confess I know nothing about it.

For the 10 million people a year trying to get into America - I'm not saying it's not a good place. Obviously it is, and Americans are lucky to live there, much as I consider myself very lucky to live in England. In recent history, America and Western Europe have been the richest places in the world, and so obviously people want to move in. And America obviously has many strengths. Just not necessarily those that it believes it has.

We just elected a black man, raised at least part of the time in a single family President of the United States.

Yes, that is extraordinary, and deserves enormous respect. Which, indeed, America is receiving from all over the world. I'm much more pro-America than I was a year ago.

[Alneyan]

Originally Posted by Tichy

As best I remember, the "egalité" slogan indicates equal rights before the law, not economic equality.

What precisely is meant by 'equality' has been the subject of some dispute, actually... still, most people even at the time of the revolution used 'equality' to mean 'equality before the law', as per the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen in 1793, which includes an article that says pretty much that.

By the way, Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité only became the 'official' motto written all over the place a century after the revolution. Quite a few other mottos popped up during the revolution, but they didn't stand the test of time (some included Propriety, incidentally).

[Tifone]

From when Italy is in Eastern Europe? Damn, they moved my country around when I was sleeping?

Would also like to know where people in my country are currently held for indefinite time. I'll say it tomorrow to my law professors in the university so we go and legally assist them.

(Also, playing again with Godwin? )

[Sombre]

We just elected a black man, raised at least part of the time in a single family President of the United States.

Who is also a white man, who spent more money than the other guy, who himself was burdened with the legacy of an extremely unpopular president and a frightening VP.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Is guilt really assumed until proven innocent in France? That sounds very unlikely, but I confess I know nothing about it.

It is often said. It is not true. The French criminal codes asserts the presumption of innocence.
The popular criticism comes from an unfair comparison of two different legal approaches. France (and much of the continent?) uses an inquisitorial system, as opposed to the adversarial system used in Britain and the US.

And I'm nowhere near enough of an expert to go further than that.