Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Corinthian]

Backtracking a bit, how many people have ever seen anyone cast the "Iron Pig" spell? Because I agree with who ever it was that said that the situation with Marverni is currently absurd for any nation that use size 2 units. And rather dire for any nation that use size 3 or larger.

Look!


A better price for these for marverni would be 15E for 10 or something. Maybe even more. The thing is, no other nation is using the Pigs so we might as well raise the price to be competitive. Currently its almost like buying Ettins from that nautilus place.

[Calahan]

I've used Iron Pigs several times. A great little cost efficient spell IMO (and probably too efficient), especially for small raiding forces. I used them extensively as Bandar Log in a game I subbed into (when Bailz bailzed) last year, and was raiding high PD on my borders with just 7 pigs and a S1 mage.

[Corinthian]

I guess we can (and by we I mean someone other than me that can actually mod) replace the Iron Boar unit with a unit that is identical with the iron pig. Then we can make a new national spell that gives units that are identical to iron boars, with a proper price on it.

[Torgon]

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Backtracking a bit, how many people have ever seen anyone cast the "Iron Pig" spell? Because I agree with who ever it was that said that the situation with Marverni is currently absurd for any nation that use size 2 units. And rather dire for any nation that use size 3 or larger.

Look!


A better price for these for marverni would be 15E for 10 or something. Maybe even more. The thing is, no other nation is using the Pigs so we might as well raise the price to be competitive. Currently its almost like buying Ettins from that nautilus place.

But its not like Iron pigs (or the fact that Marverni get iron boars) is a new addition to the game. It's always been there. Are a lot of games being dominated by herds Marverni iron boars? It's a useful spell, but so are a lot of national spells.

The current price of 4 E gems is reduced from the 10 of vanilla. It could probably use a small boost in price, perhaps back to closer to the vanilla cost of 10 E gems, but 1.5 times the vanilla cost is a bit extreme. I'm guessing that there was at least some logic behind the reduction and that they weren't seeing much action at the original price. Marverni still has a TON of other uses for E gems.

And yes the boars are more useful than the regular pigs. Much higher moral, and so less likelihood of a route through your own troops. But they still share that terrible MR stat. Is a just a higher moral really enough to justify a large price difference between the Marverni version of the spell and the regular version?

I'll admit that I'm a bit biased, I like Marv as a nation and don't like seeing them nerfed. I just think that as long as we're swinging the nerf bat there are probably other nations that still need it more than Marverni.

The main reason I originally brought it up was as a consistency issue. Since boars all have berserk now, the Iron boars should have it too. Now that would be overpowered at the current price. I would suggest doing two things, give the Iron boars berserk just like all the other boars and the boost the price (or decrease the amount). I still think about 1 E gem per boar is about the limit. Just remember what they're competing with: earth boots, earthquakes, crystal gear, armor, end game earth attacks and cyclopes, etc.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Originally Posted by Corinthian

I guess we can (and by we I mean someone other than me that can actually mod) replace the Iron Boar unit with a unit that is identical with the iron pig. Then we can make a new national spell that gives units that are identical to iron boars, with a proper price on it.

I dunno, that's actively removing a cool, thematic thing unique to marverni just because there's a perception that they're overpowered without any evidence.

[Corinthian]

Admiral, I am not saying that we should remove them. Read again. I *am* saying we should move them to a separate spell that is priced differently than the current spell. Because the current spell gives hugely different outcomes depending on witch nation is casting it and is thus making the spell hard to balance.

And Torgon, its not only the extra morale that is powerful, although it helps. They have boosted almost every stat except MR. The main thing is that they have gotten 1 size larger and that they are tramplers. So they are prot 20 size 3, sacred tramplers for a nation with a national haste spell, that cost 0.44 E gems a piece.

And weather or not these things actually dominates games is irrelevant because I dont think most Marverni players are even aware of it. The spell does not show up as changed in the list unless you cast it. I did not even know of it before Torgon told me truth to be told.

[Torgon]

mistake

[Bat/man]

I don't see giving iron boars berserk.
Iron skin = no nerve endings...

If Marverni wants them to berserk, they have access to the area effect madness spell..(Touch of Madness?) - which has a huge area of effect, no gem cost, and its low research level.

This spell is over powered as-is. Making them berserk conserves a mage action unnecessarily, and makes the spell even MORE useful to other nations.

Leave it as is and raise the price to 6 e. (minimum).

[Torgon]

Originally Posted by Corinthian

And Torgon, its not only the extra morale that is powerful, although it helps. The main thing is that they have gotten 1 size larger and that they are tramplers.

Incorrect. Iron pigs are also size 3 tramplers. If they weren't it would be an altogether useless spell. Here are the actual stats of both units.

Iron pigs Iron Boars
Size 3 3
HP 15 25
Prot 20 20
Moral 10 15
MR 5 5
En 5 2
Str 12 15
Att 8 12
Def 7 7
AP 10 14
Trample Trample
Forest Suv Forest Suv
Sacred

Yes. There's an HP gain, a boost to attack, and a decrease in enc, and a boost in moral. I'll assert, as I stated before, that the real significant change is the boost to moral (and obviously the sacred). I'd argue that the others are pretty trivial for the purposes your really going to use them for.

[Torgon]

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Admiral, I am not saying that we should remove them. Read again. I *am* saying we should move them to a separate spell that is priced differently than the current spell. Because the current spell gives hugely different outcomes depending on witch nation is casting it and is thus making the spell hard to balance.

But that's sort of the point. This is a cool thematic easter egg that the developers put into the game. A useful spell (and Iron pigs for other nations that can cast it is useful spell) becomes even more useful for the guys who worship pigs. This is not some new addition of CBM. The devs very much intended for Iron Pigs in the hands of Marverni to be powerful. Changing cool thematic easter eggs should require a little more evidence than you're mustering.

Originally Posted by Corinthian

And weather or not these things actually dominates games is irrelevant because I dont think most Marverni players are even aware of it. The spell does not show up as changed in the list unless you cast it. I did not even know of it before Torgon told me truth to be told.

Just because you did know about it doesn't mean others don't. It doesn't take long to figure out. As I and others have said, Iron pigs is a useful spell. Every nation that has E and N mages should be keeping at least a small herd of metal pigs around, Marverni included. Play one game with Marverni, or just make the pretty obvious guess that a spell dealing with pigs might have a different effect in the pig worshiping nation, and you'll find the change.

I agree that its a useful spell, but easily counter-able; the boars still have craptastic MR. Marverni has A LOT of other uses for E gems.