*** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***

[Major Tom]

I think that Star Trek suffers from a lot of 'racial generalization'. The most 'realistic' interpretation of the Star Trek 'races' are in TOS, in my opionion. TNG, DS9, VOY really seemed to polarize the different cultures in Star Trek, making them all being irrationally 2 dimensional with only OCCASIONAL divergents from the path (i.e., when that Starfleet officer tried a military coup in DS9).

In TOS, the Klingons were much more reasonable people then in the 1990's Star Trek universe. They were 'warmongerish', but accepted peace, and were more 'realistic' (i.e., not TOTALLY warmongering) as they appear later.

The Romulans in TOS were a lot like the Klingons in TNG+. They were honourable, and had to rely a lot on discipline and bravery to make up for technological disparity.

I never liked how the later Star Trek series dictated an almost absolute description for each empire. They became almost too predictable in later series.

One voyager episode (one of the few that I have seen) comes to mind. It had to do with accessing a Cardassian medical individual's information by the hologram doctor. Many people said that he was a war criminal, and others defended him. However, of course he WAS a war criminal, primarily because he was a CARDASSIAN! It would have made for a much better episode had this doctor been unfairly 'erased' by an irrate Bajoran crewman for things that he did not do, but it was much easier to make him fit the Cardassian mold.

It was only at the end of DS9 when some of these 'races' broke their mould. Cardassians proved they were honourable, Klingons became rational, Romulans became more open and less Vulcan-like.

In a way, Star Trek 'races' accurately match our PERCEPTION of other cultures (i.e., how we PERCIEVE the USSR, Communist China, and even the United States). However, the reality is, is that none of these perceptions are/were real. Russians were not like the Klingons, Chinese not like the Romulans, and Americans not like the Federation. It is a falacy to believe that cultures are reflective of a singular perception.

TOS had more realistic cultures.

Federation = Generally peaceful, but will engage in occasional Wars of Agression and a history and present blotted with problems.

Klingons = Generally warlike, but will not go to war if it is irrational (i.e., making peace in Star Trek VI, the one TOS episode where Klingons and Federation were controlled by a being and made to fight eachother with swords where they made peace, the Tribble episode where Klingons and Federation can actually sit in the same bar and not KILL eachoter)

Romulans = Honourable, emotional yet intelligent. Due to technology disparities they had to rely on high discipline and sneaky tactics, hence the development of a cloaking device.

So, I see 'real' Star Trek 'races' to be ALL based off of a similar model (like all cultures) but with different 'cliques'. Some are more geared toward one aspect then others, but this did not consume them completely. However, they are not TOTALLY diriven toward that goal (i.e., Klingons only think of war, Ferrengi only of money, Federation only of peace, Cardassians only of cruelty, etc...,).

This mod will be based off of the TNG universe, but I really don't believe that it is necessarily a FAIR universe. TNG is VERY biased toward the Federation being everything to emulate, while all of the other races are extremely corrupt in some aspect. I think in order to get a Star Trek feel to the game, as well as a well balanced game, is to use TOS-like cultures and 'races' over that of TNG/DS9/VOY cultures.

Otherwise, the predictability becomes ovewhelming, knowing that the Federation will almost never get into a friendly posture with the Romulans.

[Kevin Arisa]

What would be really cool is if the Ferengi built a lot of various units and ships and then constantly nagged the other races to trade money (resources) for them. It would be kinda funny if you were running out of troops and you just contact the Ferengi and buy 300 of theirs! I don't know how that would work but if it did it would add some racial flavor to the Ferengi.

[Captain Kwok]

Major Tom:

I disagree with almost all of your points.

The Original Series, while groundbreaking for its time, was for the most part crappy aside from a handful of good episodes. The depiction of most alien cultures included a scantily clad women whom Kirk would be enamoured with. I don't think it was until the original movies that Star Trek became a lot better.

Let's discuss about races being portrayed:

Klingons

Klingons in the TOS were hardly unique compared to the variety of Klingons presented in the later series. In TOS, they were all one dimensional, wanting to destroy the Federation, and it was only the intervention by some "superior" race that they made peace. In TNG and later, you have Klingons of all types, honourable warriros like Worf and Martok, nasties like the Duras Family, some in the middle ground. The acts of the Empire were sometimes for peace and sometimes for war depending on the need of the Empire.

Romulans

The Romulans in TOS were decent, but hardly conclusive since we only saw them a few times. In TNG and later, we had Romulans of all kinds - some they wanted to destroy, others who wanted peace, some wanting reunification. Some honourable and some not. In fact, at the end of DS9, it was looking like the Federation and Romulans might have seen the start of better relations.

Cardassians

The Cardassians were portrayed in many different lights as well. Some were plain bad like Dukat, some felt bad about the occupation, others were more honourable, some were not. There were a lot of good Cardassian characters that did not fall into stereotypes. The Voyager episode you referred to you must not watched carefully. It wasn't because he was Cardassian, but because he had experimented with Bajoran subjects during the occupation in his research a la Nazis and Japanese in WWII. Big difference, eh?

I think the later series did a lot better job with avoiding stereotypes and addressing racial issues on many, many occassions. I'm not sure how much of the later episodes you have seen, but it is certainly there!

[DarkHorse]

I am most eagerly anticipating this mod!

Just a quick question, and I hope you don't think I'm picking nits (although I probably am). Didn't the Genesis Device more or less terraform an existing planet (i.e. convert the atmosphere to breathable), rather than create one from asteroids? I wonder if that would be possible to do with SEIV. Apologies if this has been discussed before. It would be neat if that were possible, though. Just bomb a planet into breathability
EDIT: of course it would probably have to be ridiculously expensive... but still cool

[ December 14, 2002, 18:44: Message edited by: DarkHorse ]

[Captain Kwok]

Actually, the Genesis device took a nebula and made it into a star system.

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Actually, the Genesis device took a nebula and made it into a star system.

No. The genesis device (created by Dr. Caroline Marcus (I think)) creates an atmosphear, Flora and fauna, water, and everything else from a barren planetoid or other harsh conditions.

It is delivered in torpedo form.

The bad thing about the genesis device was that if used on an inhabited planet, it would reform everything, even the people/animals already living on the planet in an instant.

Edit: Grammatical errors... Not enough Sleep this week...

Another edit: Oh! Now I know what Captain Kwok is talking about: yes, the Genesis device can create a star and a planet from a nebula, where the Mutara nebula was turned into the Mutara Sector, complete with sun and the Genesis planet, after it was detonated in the nebula.

[ December 14, 2002, 20:33: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[DarkHorse]

Now I'll have to go watch the movie again. Oh darn.

Anyway, in the game, is it possible to mod a one shot planet breathablizer weapon?

[Fyron]

No, it is not. You could have it destroy and build planets. So it would blow it up, then reform it on the next turn. Simulates the effect.

[DarkHorse]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No, it is not. You could have it destroy and build planets. So it would blow it up, then reform it on the next turn. Simulates the effect.

You may be right. I tried creating a stellar manip compenent as follows, but it doesn't do anything. I would like to know why exactly it doesn't work, though. Anyone know why?

From Abilities.txt:
Planet - Change Atmosphere
Value1 = Number of turns until atmosphere is changed.
Value2 = (It changes to the atmosphere breathable by the majority of the population.)

I created this component:
Name := Genesis Device
Description := Create breathable atmosphere on planet. Component is destroyed on use.
Pic Num := 40
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 100
Cost Minerals := 500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 200
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 500
Restrictions := None
General Group := Stellar Manipulation
Family := 1000
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Stellar Manipulation
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Planet - Change Atmosphere
Ability 1 Descr := Change to Breathable Atmosphere.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Component Destroyed On Use
Ability 2 Descr := Component is destroyed after use.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

EDIT: It doesn't give any errors, but the ship just sits there over the planet, and Stellar Manipulation button remains greyed out. Oh well.

[ December 14, 2002, 20:28: Message edited by: DarkHorse ]

[Captain Kwok]

TerranC:
My mistake - it's intended to work the way you described - but in the movie, it happened when it was detonated on the Reliant in the nebula.

Anyways, I think I will keep the device as is in the mod, as a normal planet from asteroids thing.

I was supposed to update the site this afternoon, but it seems I won't have the time today thanks to my party, but tomorrow for sure!