Balancing Wrathful Skies

[Yvelina]

> > > It should not be nerfed into oblivion like the VQ .

> > The VQ was hardly nerfed into oblivion. It was nerfed such that it was not the most optimal pretender.

Actually, I have not seen a VQ in play since the nerf, so I'd say 'oblivion' is indeed accurate. Personally I think that the VQ downgrade went WAY too far. I was never too afraid of undead pretenders, because there are a number of spells that take care of them real well. I was a newbie, and I cannot say I could have handled the VQ in her prime, but I have since killed a number of GKs in middle/late games, and frankly I do not see how the VQ pretender deserves the ridiculously high cost and the expensive paths.

By the way, I have not seen Black Forest Ulm much lately, either. The VQ was a way to make them half-way viable.

Right now, the only nations that can take a VQ without dooming themselves are Jotunheim, Caelum and Abysia (guess why!) and each of them can do a lot better

> > The GK filled that role and hence he should be next on the chopping block.

> Yeah but that's the problem.

Hear, hear!

> I agree that the VQ was too good but now after the VQ is nerfed if the GK gets also nerfed then if this is continued we end up by having all pretenders having equal stats .

Yes, and in any case, the good players, defined as those left standing after the smoke clears, are the first to move to the new Uberalla. I am in a game with Zen's mod, and I look at my boyfriend's turns in another. Funny how popular the Virtue has become, all of a sudden... or how well the Asinja leads Vanheim.

[Kristoffer O]

> Actually, I have not seen a VQ in play since the nerf, so I'd say 'oblivion' is indeed accurate. Personally I think that the VQ downgrade went WAY too far. I was never too afraid of undead pretenders, because there are a number of spells that take care of them real well. I was a newbie, and I cannot say I could have handled the VQ in her prime, but I have since killed a number of GKs in middle/late games, and frankly I do not see how the VQ pretender deserves the ridiculously high cost and the expensive paths.

Have you ever played a lich? Do they need to be un-nerfed from oblivion? The VQ was nerfed with the lich in mind. GK is not immortal. Immortals are difficult to evaluate as the immediate use of immortality might not be apparent (perhaps if you are flying).

> By the way, I have not seen Black Forest Ulm much lately, either. The VQ was a way to make them half-way viable.

Half-way viable? I thought they were considered one of the most powerful nations by some players at a time. I never got the impression that the VQ was the main reason for this. But you are right, there is not much talk about BF Ulm anymore (in either direction, wich perhaps means that it is balanced ).

[The_Tauren13]

I use a VQ all the time... but that's just cause I am lazy and only use immortals so I don't have to be so careful with early creeping

Besides... vampire chicks are hotttt.

[Zen]

Kristoffer O said:
Half-way viable? I thought they were considered one of the most powerful nations by some players at a time. I never got the impression that the VQ was the main reason for this. But you are right, there is not much talk about BF Ulm anymore (in either direction, wich perhaps means that it is balanced ).

In actuality, BF is not what it once was, due to the Scout Bloodhunting. Most half-blood hunting nations (no nations with cheap blood hunters) were hurt when this change was done (which I was for). Because of it's mages, it's not at the front of the pack, but somewhere near the upper middle IMO. It has it's share of "What? Why would I recruit this when survivability/cost says I should just recruit Rangers so they can stealth" units, including Ghoul Guardians, Zweihanders and a total lack of priests. Their mages are subpar because there is no real mage in the selection, only half-mages that do other semi-cool things.

If I had to play Ulm and I wanted to have a competitive edge as well as wasn't in a game that has uberlow population so Blood Hunting has it's place, I'd still always pick BF. But it's still has Ulm's basic flaw. It's pretender has to do all the heavy lifting for that theme because nothing will really work without it. So your actual selection of Pretenders is much smaller than you'd really try.

[Gandalf Parker]

Kristoffer O said:
> By the way, I have not seen Black Forest Ulm much lately, either. The VQ was a way to make them half-way viable.

Half-way viable? I thought they were considered one of the most powerful nations by some players at a time. I never got the impression that the VQ was the main reason for this. But you are right, there is not much talk about BF Ulm anymore (in either direction, wich perhaps means that it is balanced ).

BF-Ulm seems to sit in much the same position as Pangaea. Since so few people play sneak-nations well, when they are played they tend to come as a big surprise. (hmmm almost a pun in that)

[Yvelina]

> Have you ever played a lich?

No. I do not play male pretenders, and the Lich Queen loses 40% hps, 3 protection, 3 attack, and 3 strenght, compared to the Lich, and gets 2 Dominion for it. But even the lich itself is hugely underpowered. It is vulnerable to fire, and is both an undead and a construct, which makes it useless in middle-late game as a combatant. Immortality in my book is mostly a crutch for weak players - sure it is useful in the initial expansion, but I have never lost a pretender in the initial expansion. The lich does not fly, it is not etherial, its paths are relatively expensive for a low power combatant... Basically, it has nothing to recommend it.

> Do they need to be un-nerfed from oblivion?

Oh, yes, please! For starters they should be cheapers, in base cost as well as path cost.

> The VQ was nerfed with the lich in mind.

Well, if you want to balance pretenders with the lich in mind... Nevermind, keep going, nothing to see here, forget I said anything...

> GK is not immortal. Immortals are difficult to evaluate as the immediate use of immortality might not be apparent (perhaps if you are flying).

Immortality has two benefits for the good player. Recuperation and willingness to fight to the death in friendly domain. The first is a major benefit, but the undead are poor middle game combatants anyway, so it applies less to them. The second is only important if you are supporting your pretender with troops. But if you are fighting in your domain, you are either in trouble (because you are defending) or the other player is weaker than you (because he could not maintain his domain when he knew he was against an immortal)

> > By the way, I have not seen Black Forest Ulm much lately, either. The VQ was a way to make them half-way viable.

> Half-way viable? I thought they were considered one of the most powerful nations by some players at a time.

That must have been before my time. I was fully indoctrinated over the Summer vacation. By then BF Ulm was labeled as limited in late game, too dependant on indies, and 'a few tricks pony'. Not as bad as the other Ulms, which are completely useless, but bad.

> I never got the impression that the VQ was the main reason for this.

I don't know, using a VQ with Black Forest felt right. Now, it's impossible.

> But you are right, there is not much talk about BF Ulm anymore (in either direction, wich perhaps means that it is balanced ).

Or maybe that it lost its charm, and no one bothers with it?

[alexti]

Yvelina said:
> Have you ever played a lich?

No. I do not play male pretenders, and the Lich Queen loses 40% hps, 3 protection, 3 attack, and 3 strenght, compared to the Lich, and gets 2 Dominion for it. But even the lich itself is hugely underpowered. It is vulnerable to fire, and is both an undead and a construct, which makes it useless in middle-late game as a combatant. Immortality in my book is mostly a crutch for weak players - sure it is useful in the initial expansion, but I have never lost a pretender in the initial expansion.

You haven't met uber-militiaman yet, who can kill half-equipped VQ (or dragon) in one hit

Yvelina said:
Immortality has two benefits for the good player. Recuperation and willingness to fight to the death in friendly domain. The first is a major benefit, but the undead are poor middle game combatants anyway, so it applies less to them. The second is only important if you are supporting your pretender with troops. But if you are fighting in your domain, you are either in trouble (because you are defending) or the other player is weaker than you (because he could not maintain his domain when he knew he was against an immortal)

Well, usually you always have to fight in your dominion, any sensible opponent will first try to disrupt your better provinces with his hordes from hell, calls of wild, sneaky troops etc. With those, half-SC pretender can deal fine and immortality is a good insurance against opponent cunningly dropping couple of well prepared ID on top of those hiding wolves who took the province originally. It's always nice to get your pretender back after such surprise

And also immortality allows you to take some astral on your pretender without fear of mind duel.

[Azhur]

Once again a topic that has gone way off the road. VQs and Liches is a nice small-talk subject, but what does it has to do with 'Balancing Wrathful Skies'-topic? Nothing! So please, stop arguing about it or make a new topic...

Hope you guys won't give me the notorious "offender"-stamp.

[Yvelina]

> With those, half-SC pretender can deal fine and immortality is a good insurance against opponent cunningly dropping couple of well prepared ID on top of those hiding wolves who took the province originally

My sending a pretender to deal with a pack of wolves is about as likely as a couple of ice devils managing to scratch her.

A shot of my pretender in my ongoing game... of course, in that game, I would not be risking my pretender in combat unless the stakes were very high. She is equiped for forging and fighting off horrors, or she would have been sporting a few artifacts.

[alexti]

Is it turn 15 or something?