Machaka and a W9 bless

[licker]

Heh...

Well do you really want your own scales to cover your territory

Other than heat probably...

I agree that Iron Will is problimatic, as you have to position the mage so that only the spiders are in range otherwise he casts it on your archers (uggg....), but... its easy to get to quickly, and its a tool in the toolbox if you really need it. Also you probably don't need to cover 100% of your spiders, just enough so that the enemy wastes some casts on them.

If we're talking paralyze here it will target the closest correct? So you can stick your spam up front to draw off the first wave, then your quickened spiders should still be able to get a few into the rear/flanks of the enemy.

And if you're willing to take another hit in your scales somewhere (or drop astral to 4) you can remain awake with a dom of 7 as the glyph starts with dom4 so bumping it is quite cheap.

[thejeff]

Is that 17MR for the spiders with riders, or after the rider dies?

Because I thought the Spiders themselves were down at the animal level, 5 or so, and I don't see how Iron Will and a bless gets them to 17.
Before the riders die they're not bad for MR, but the riders are fairly fragile despite the high protection, so you usually wind up with a good number of Spiders, who then die in droves to any MR-based attacks

[licker]

Originally Posted by thejeff

Is that 17MR for the spiders with riders, or after the rider dies?

Because I thought the Spiders themselves were down at the animal level, 5 or so, and I don't see how Iron Will and a bless gets them to 17.
Before the riders die they're not bad for MR, but the riders are fairly fragile despite the high protection, so you usually wind up with a good number of Spiders, who then die in droves to any MR-based attacks

Good point.

In that case its probably worth positioning the remaining riders to get the bless and let your spiders fend for themselves

But as I've been saying for the most part with the w9 bless my riders remain mostly intact anyway, unless I use them poorly by not massing them enough and letting them get strung out and surrounded.

There's also going to be a handful of the Hunter Lords in there, and those guys are tougher if you equip them a little, or get lucky with heroic abilities, since they kill alot, they tend to compete for the abilities anyway.

[archaeolept]

no, they actually buffed the hunter spiders to MR 10 some patch ago... the ordinary spiders only have MR 5

MR 10 is a good basis at least... and i just got some ape astral mage hero, who could cast antimagic.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by licker

Well to try and shore up some of the weaknesses being discussed here I tried an awake f4w9s6 glyph. Scales were 03H3S1G0M2D2 and I had a dominion of 5. This is with CBM as well.

There's your problem. CBM makes EACH step of Magic scale +/-1 Research. So with CBM, under Drain 2, you are -2 RP/mage. I think if you are only using your pretender to shore up early research, you may well have better results putting him to sleep for a year, and fixing that Drain. The first 12 turns will be a little slower research, but by the time he gets out, he can catch you up by your turn 20 deadline, and then your research will only be better, even as he is more free to do other things for you.

Since need for research doesn't tend to relax at all before turn 50, I look at higher Magic scale as GIVING me more mages. As the number you need in Labs to maintain a desired research rate is lowered, letting you use more in your armies. Otherwise you buy them, you hit shift-R, and you tell them to get comfortable.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by licker

I disagree that the spiders are resource intensive, other than the first 2 turns you are not resource limited compared to your income (assuming you also want to recruit mages...), and eventually its the holy which limits you anyway.

What scales does machaka need to be effective anyway? Order3 obviously, and they get Heat3 for free, so you can easilly take Mis2(3) and Drain2, hell you can even throw in some sloth and still not have a resource issue since the spiders are the only unit you need resources for and your early spider armies clean out indies very quickly with zero casualties (this is all before turn 10).

Now I grant that I don't know the MP game very well, so maybe this early expansion/rush power doesn't translate into anything, but that would seem to imply that all bless based rushing doesn't translate into much of anything, not just for Machaka.

How much research/mages do you have to effectively neutralize 20 spiders on turn 10? What else have you sacrificed to do this?

Again I don't know the answer to those questions, so I'm posing them. The best thing for me to do would be to try it in MP obviously, but I don't really have the time for that right now

Compare Machaka to the good bless races:
Mictlan, Lanka, Vanheim, Tien Chi,Tir (I forget). Heck, you can even compare to Pythium (ME), Ermor's Shadow vestals,

Machaka's spiders are WAY more expensive than mictlans, jaguar or eagle warriors, WAY more expensive than Tien's sacred warrior.. Way less effective than Lanka's Tiger, Donkey heads or Kamas.

Is what I meant when I said they cost too much.

With Lanka, Tien, Mictlan - I can afford to go , Heat-3 Drain X, Misfortune X,, just like machaka - however I can also afford to go sloth-3 (Donkey heads work just fine for lanka).

Regarding being holy limited - the question will be - are your holy troops built at any castle, or are they capital only. This question is one of the main reasons why Pythium is not really a bless nation - Capitol only bless recruits.

But for most of these other nations, you are going to be popping up another castle and temple and doubling your sacred output asap.

One last problem aspect about the spider riders being two capital/resource intensive.

Building a few high value units at the start is excessively risky. There are indies that will trash even respectable numbers of your spiders.. tthe ancient prescense, the 3 air mages, probably bogus, the hydro mancers.

Additionally, hi value units are especially susceptible to open ended die rolls. If you have 100 units - you don't care much if you lose 20. If you have 4 units - you care a lot if you lose 1
(if no other reason than the morale checks you face every round).

I've played probably 20 games trying to make a machaka bless work. Its fun, and its fine in SP - just not what I would call competitive in MP play.

[licker]

There's your problem. CBM makes EACH step of Magic scale +/-1 Research. So with CBM, under Drain 2, you are -2 RP/mage.

Well in the version of CBM I have this is not the case, D2 is only -1, or its not showing properly in the descriptor. Either way, It would be interesting to try it your way.

Building a few high value units at the start is excessively risky. There are indies that will trash even respectable numbers of your spiders.. tthe ancient prescense, the 3 air mages, probably bogus, the hydro mancers.

Well these indies come as events don't they? Otherwise you can 'avoid' them after they hit. Xbow and Knight provinces don't trouble my armies, and anything less than that is just completely overrun. As with any expansion strategy you arn't just blindly charging around.

Additionally, hi value units are especially susceptible to open ended die rolls. If you have 100 units - you don't care much if you lose 20. If you have 4 units - you care a lot if you lose 1
(if no other reason than the morale checks you face every round).

Well make the numbers 25/100 and 1/4 and the 'cost' is the same, depending on how replaceable the units are, which is obviously an issue for the Hunters, however the only units which are 25:1 with Hunters are the absolute worst of the worst chaff, and the blessed spiders will have a moral of 15(? something around there I think).

As I've said, I don't have the MP perspective, and I appreciate what you all are telling me, I'm just being obstinate because I want to be sure I'm getting the full effort into the replies, which I think I am. I also havn't really tried other bless nations much to compare them myself, so I may just have to do that and see what I find.

[llamabeast]

There's your problem. CBM makes EACH step of Magic scale +/-1 Research. So with CBM, under Drain 2, you are -2 RP/mage.

That used to be the case, but is not any more, since the latest version of CBM.

[HoneyBadger]

Whenever I play Machaka, I tend to just recruit the tarantula riding commanders instead of the sacred soldiers, and then lots and lots of archers and hoplites.

So a heavy bless strategy isn't that necessary, but if I wanted one, I'd probably go with an imprisoned cyclops with W9/E9/N4/S4. Since I'd be forging MR amulets for the commanders, that's enough MR for the basic spiders.

Oh and I don't know that I favor the return to vanilla magic scales for CBM. The way it was worked really well with research set to "Very Hard".

[chrispedersen]

yeah thats what I was trying to suggest honey - the sacred route is just not the route to go with machaka.

Its sub optimal compared to other races - but its also suboptimal with other options machaka can take.