Helheim - lets burn some rubber - Page 5

chrispedersen · #41 January 4th, 2009, 02:34 PM

Quills are much maligned - but they serve one useful purpose.
to cut the time down till con4 is available. if you have a low cost 1 air mage, it is well worth the time and gems to pump out 5-6 of these. Payback is on the order of 1-2 turns.

JimMorrison · #42 January 4th, 2009, 05:11 PM

Payback in terms of investment of mage time vs RP gained from the Quill, sure. But I can't think of a single situation that I won't find myself in 20 turns with a dozen good uses for 25 Air gems that I don't have.

vfb · #43 January 4th, 2009, 07:43 PM

Yep, but you can get a lot out of 2 quills you make on turn 2 and 4 with some nations (CB), especially if you're on hard research or have drain scales, or you've got limited research mages you can hire because you need priests from your cap leading your armies.

Sombre · #44 January 4th, 2009, 07:59 PM

I am loathe to spend air gems that could be used on cloud trapezes.

Wrana · #45 January 5th, 2009, 05:52 PM

I had an idea about good scales strategy with Helheim - mostly based on their standart troops for early expansion. But probably this idea would be better for EA Vanaheim... I agree that Vans are good thugs and I used them as such in one game I was actually competing for victory in.

Actually, I don't think that Helheim's research is THAT terrible - I had stable second place throughout all game and probably could get better.
Considering communions - Vanjarls can do them just fine by themselves, though this will burn slaves, of course. And Spectre or Unburied mage can capitalize on it with just the Mass Enslave somebody said was impossible for Helheim (by the way, Specter is almost as stealthy as Vans themselves!).
Quills I think aren't that bad, especially as you can have them cheaply with hammers. Probably an awakened researcher negates necessity for them, but still they are good enough - expecially if you don't have enough Death/Fire gems (or no research).

Kadelake · #46 January 6th, 2009, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrana

Actually, I don't think that Helheim's research is THAT terrible - I had stable second place throughout all game and probably could get better.

I've been wondering how you managed to have so high research

Did you use any special method?

WraithLord · #47 January 6th, 2009, 05:49 AM

The guide is good and I think following it will lead to a significant advantage but only so long as the nation expands. Some builds can benefit from sitting tight, but certainly not this one. The must expand builds suffer a diplomatic penalty b/c many times they'll face allied opposition. Of course it all depends on game settings: score graphs on/off, diplo on/off, map size etc.

I read you're considering doing a Yomi guide. Yommi

I was breaking my head how to play this nation right (as in efficiently) and the best I came up with is going with the nation power, the Dai Onis. I can wait to read your angle on this.

Wrana · #48 January 8th, 2009, 07:21 AM

As far as I remember, I just didn't scorn Quills.

Plus Magic +1 (which seemed to be the case with you, too) and Vans as researchers weren't too hard on upkeep, considering they are sacred. Of course, Svartalfar are better per turn - but they were also more busy, hammers and all. By the way, I also empowered Svartalf in Blood, as Baalz recommends. Anyway, I will write in more details if I actually manage to win with this setup...

MaxWilson · #49 January 10th, 2009, 03:27 AM

Another thing worth mentioning: Helheim mages have naturally high precision, access to Air magic for Aim, dwarven hammers, and plenty of D1 Helkarls. If you're facing thugs or mages, to me this says "Black Bow of Botulf for 3 death gems, please, with 26 Precision."

This is one of the few legitimate uses IMHO for fire/fire/fire/fire/fire and flee, since the next time you come back the thug won't have any buffs (or MR). Later on, of course, this is a prelude to just Disintegrating everyone.

-Max

Baalz · #50 January 10th, 2009, 11:26 AM

Yeah, when I started putting together this guide one of the first things I tried to put together was a death bless with bows of war and super precision. Wasn't nearly cost effective though as anything you really want to afflict is well armored with a shield. Black bow is a good idea, particularly in concert with a black heart. I've also had a lot of luck with piercers, once you get up to like 10 of them they are exceptionally good human hitpoint stuff with good armor. I once played a game as Machaka vs dual blessed Knights of the Chalice and when I first deployed the piercers against a large group of knights who had until that point be dominating me it was immensely amusing - it looked just like the PD Machaka shortbows were suddenly mowing down the knights with a vengeance. I think a shield still blocks the AN damage due to the way the mechanics work, but it's still plenty effective against units without a tower shield and a bargain for 3E.