A simple thank you

[Boron]

Arryn please try briefly .
I played Victoria excessevly about 1 month this maybe a bit too short but not much .

Really seriously : In Victoria you first try to setup your economy by building railroads , factories and upgrading pops .
I fail to see though how this requires a lot of skill ?
It is a lot of micro if you have a big country but after playing a bit each player knows which Factories are important and/or profitable .

Warfare is ultrasimple because this is not the focus of victoria . Though there are now about 30 different land units/brigade attachments you normally chose only 2-3 types so it is almost like in classical EU2 .

Then there is only left Diplomacy .


In Dominions instead you have really almost endless possibilities because there are so many viable strategies .
I think you can say Dominions is much deeper than Victoria though these games shouldn't really be compared .

[Annette]

I don't post here often. but those of you who know me also know I'm drawn to trainwreck threads like a moth drawn to a light bulb. I find it fascinating how a thread can start with something as well intentioned as a "simple thank you" and evolve into a discussion which includes...well a discussion like this one.

I'd like to say thank you to everyone here. Thank you for the kind words and compliments which inspired such thoughtful, passionate discussion. I'm sure Illwinter appreciates your analysis of the best way to bring their games to market, as do we. We never want to lose sight of the fact that without our customers purchasing, playing and supporting our games, we would not be here. And we're proud of our forums where we encourage discussion of ideas, are able to answer questions, and watch the development of a community where players and developers come together to make game play a great experience.

We appreciate those of you who purchase our games through our e-store. And we pride ourselves on making it a positive experience. We accept just about any form of payment out there, credit cards, checks, money orders and PayPal. We offer free shipping on domestic orders via USPS priority mail. We ship to any destination in the world to which UPS and USPS offer service. We have an on-line customer support center where your submissions are answered in a matter of hours, not days.

But we do realize some people are hesitant to order on line, and for them we have available a downloadable order form which can be mailed or faxed to us. And for those who prefer to buy the game in their local game shop, we're there, too. No, you won't find our games in the "big box" chain retailers. But you will find our games in local, independently owned game and hobby shops. And we encourage you to support those brick and mortar shops by spending your gaming dollars there rather than in the chains. You won't find our games in the same store where you buy your vacuum cleaner. You'll find them in stores that are dedicated to the gaming industry.

Just because you find a game on the shelf of Best Buy or EB Games, does not necessarily mean the people involved in putting the game there would consider the release a "success." Only Paradox and Strategy First can say if HOI was a successful release. My observations are that HOI (and GalCiv) were introduced into mass retail by Strategy First. SF is currently operating under Chapter 11 protection from their creditors, including their developers who are reportedly owed 1.7 million in unpaid royalties. Paradox has said publically SF owes them well into the 6 figure range. Fortunately for gamers, Paradox has been able to continue to support their titles since their departure from their publisher. But not all of SF's developers have been able to survive such a hit. This is not a road we want to risk taking - not for us or our developers.

In my personal opinion (and I'm not a developer but I am married to one) the single benefit a developer of a "complex" game realizes by having a title pushed into mass retail is the ego trip. I'm sure it's wonderful to walk into Kmart and see your game on their shelves (even marked down to $9.99). But the reasons you don't see our developers' titles in Kmart are the very core of Shrapnel Games' founding principles. Shrapnel was born out of Tim's experience having designed "complex" games which were published through traditional methods and sold at mass retail. While the games were "successful", it was not a financially satisfying experience for him. Thus emerged Shrapnel Games. You may find it interesting (or not) to read the About Us page on this site. Perhaps it will help explain why we do things the way we do.

That's not to say we're adverse to change. Quite the opposite. We are poised for growth. We listen carefully to what our customers have to say; we watch industry trends; we respond to economic turns; we research and experiment new ideas. We're aware that many companies like ours are expanding the digital download method of game distribution. We watch new releases and listen to what their customers are saying. At this time there is a new release on the market that some folks report has taken over 23 hours to download. We're not ready to jump on that bandwagon. And I think it's interesting that while the dd trend is on the rise, so is, according to CNN and others, the price of games.

Again, thank you for using our forums to let us know what you think. It's important to us. I fear we may be sounding a bit defensive that our philosophies are being questioned. Please know if we do sound defensive, it's because this is our passion; it's our love. And we are most grateful for those who would prefer to purchase our games in a different manner than what we offer, but who purchase our games anyway. We trust you find the games are worth effort. So to you, "a simple thank you."

[Gandalf Parker]

Annette said:
At this time there is a new release on the market that some folks report has taken over 23 hours to download. We're not ready to jump on that bandwagon.

Ive seen those comments in the newsGroups. Put next to the comments here from people saying they got their copy in the mail in about 24 hours I guess does make the DD push not quite as preferable as it first appears to be.

[alexti]

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

My understanding is that he is talking about complex game as a game with complex gameplay, not with complex underlying code. I'm sure that Morrowind or MMRPG or Online 3D shooter have complex code inside, but the end user doesn't care about it, for him it only matters how complex is it to play the game.

Arryn said:
Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done?

Well, it depends how one defines "work". True, they sold a lot of copies through the retail. But they didn't get paid for those copies. Read Brad's comments here: http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895

[alexti]

NTJedi said:
I wonder if the developers will find a major publisher for Dominions_3 which will save us the hassle of buying Online.

I doubt that major publisher would do any good to Dominions. Just imagine what kind of publicity it would get: Mr. Casual Gamer comes in the local shop and start browsing. He knows that if the game title doesn't end with 2, 3 or better 4, it's surely some buggy and boring game. He sees nice Dominion 3 box. 3 is good! He examines the box: ... 25 nations - that's really great! ... you will be playing a God - wow, that's cool. He rushes home and installs the game. But where's 30 minutes introduction movie? And where are 4D graphics?? And how does one actually starts the game? Some time later gamer's army of elite knights gets demolished by a horder of undead spirits. AI is cheating!!! He couldn't get so many units fairly! And why mosquitoes on the battlefield don't have shadows?! Totally unrealistic!

Next game he brings the game back to the store with appropriate comments.

Whole thing will probably create a bad press and drive the price down while the increase in sales won't be significant. It's highly unlikely that somebody will enjoy Dominions as their first strategy games. The market for Dominions seems to be experienced strategy players who mastered simpler titles, and those people are usually watching for promising titles, visit newsGroups and forums, so that they're likely to find Dominions anyway.

[Arryn]

alexti said:
Well, it depends how one defines "work". True, they sold a lot of copies through the retail. But they didn't get paid for those copies. Read Brad's comments here: http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895

Thank you very much for posting that link! While it's the opposite of your intention, you actually backed up my position(s):

That article pretty well slams SF for not paying Stardock for GalCiv's retail sales, it also mentions that they intend to release their next game by both download and retail (via Ubisoft as a publisher). So Stardock, in spite of its bad experience with SF apparently still believes that retail has some merit, else why would they give it a third try? Perhaps the retail sales figures showed them that they *would* have gotten a decent amount of money were it not for the exception of making a mistake in choosing their publisher? I can only hope that Ubisoft treats them better than SF did (they can hardly do worse).

The article also conclusively states that Stardock (1.) doesn't have a significant problem with piracy from digital downloads, and (2.) is showing a healthy profit (or at least paying all their bills) by going that route.

Brad also answers the "question" regarding console vs. PC games:

I think that's a major reason consoles are starting to really crush the PC game market. People are getting fed up. They're getting a cold pizza and being told to lump it. It doesn't have to be that way. For example, The Political Machine comes out in August. We plan to have a free update available for it on the first week that adds some new features and extra goodies. There will be "bug" fixes but they'll likely be bugs no one would run into. And we'll put out updates as regularly as Ubi Soft will let us ... If the competing technology (consoles) can't be updated with new stuff after release, then you should exploit that advantage. And that means add new features, not use the Internet to supply updates that finish the game!

Basically, it's the developers/publishers releasing shoddy, half-finished games (knowing that they can finish it after release by providing patches) that he says is killing the PC market.

His concluding paragraph bears repeating:

Make it a no-brainer for someone to purchase games electronically by keeping costs reasonable and make using the games they've purchased easy and convenient. After all, it's their pizza, deliver it to them as they want and they'll support you with future orders.

[Boron]

Arryn said:
Boron,

It's obvious that in however little time you actually played Vicky you succeeded in learning very little about what the game's about, and what goes on "behind the scenes". Your summation of Vicky is tantamount to someone saying that Dom 2 just has magic item making, combat, and spellcasting. As we all know, Dom 2 is much deeper than that. So is Vicky, whether you appreciate it or not. I'm not going to waste my time (nor that of this forum's members) trying to educate you on just why Vicky is more complex than you realize. This isn't the proper forum for that. Paradox has excellent forums where I'm sure many many players would froth at the chance to set you straight were you to post there what you just posted here.

I ask once again could you please briefly say a few "behind the scenes" victoria things to back up your claim ? This takes you not more than 5 minutes and normally you like to prove me wrong anyways .

[Arryn]

Boron said:
I ask once again could you please briefly say a few "behind the scenes" victoria things to back up your claim ? This takes you not more than 5 minutes and normally you like to prove me wrong anyways .

1. Actually, it would take me more than 5 minutes.

2. I told you this isn't the proper place.

3. I have no desire to waste more of my time trying to educate you on this (or any other matter). I mentioned that in another thread a while back.

4. Trying to goad me into it won't work (for you, or anyone else). In spite of any mistaken belief to the contrary (based upon my past behavior) that you, Zen, or Archaeolept may have.

[archaeolept]

me? what did I do? :O


;-)

I mean, i didn't much care for battlecruiser 3000 i guess...

;P

[Arryn]

archaeolept said:
me? what did I do? :O

Just checking to see if you're awake. In answer to your semi-rhetorical question: Nothing *this* time. Call it an application of the Bush Doctrine (a preemptive strike). I'm trying to put to rest the notion that I'm easy (with respect to getting a rise out of me).

Tag, you're it ...