Ashikaga Shogunate mod v1.01

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Osium:
It was also a very tall bow by most standards some over 200cm tall, the draw on the bow for a strong man was around 18 kilo's whatever that is in pounds, but due to its akward shape I imagine that accounts for the reputed difficulty in drawing.

That draw seems a bit low, as it's around 40 pounds, while a modern composite bow will be 60-80 and longbows were supposed to be over 100 in some cases.

[Kristoffer O]

Hi

I have made a jpg banner and moved the Ashikaga mod to complete mods. Is the 1.02 the latest Version?

Nice work!

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
That draw seems a bit low, as it's around 40 pounds, while a modern composite bow will be 60-80 and longbows were supposed to be over 100 in some cases.

Taken from the following web page: Kyudo: Japanese Archery

(begin quoted text)
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From history I would have to say that the average draw has become much less than it used to be. During the war of the Heike (the middle ages) one master archer sunk two boats with one shot of his massive bow. In those days bows were measured by how many men were required to string it, the average being a three man bow, this monster that sunk two boats being a seven man bow! The old Kyujutsu training was much more rigorous than the modern, with several hundred arrows being shot each day. A good day at the dojo now would be forty arrows, with most students quitting at around twenty or thirty. I myself pull a 13.5 kilogram bow, which is very light. My wrists are weak. The most powerful bow I have heard of being used with any regularity in the modern age is a 42 kilogram bow. My master uses several different bows, but his regular practice bow is 18 kg I believe.

All students, no matter which instructor or school, will shoot the same design of Japanese bow which is little changed from the twelfth century. Traditionally made of hardwoods laminated front and back with bamboo the Japanese bow is one of the longest in the world, usually over seven feet in length. It is a natural double recurve bow with the arrow nocked one third of the way from the bottom and the bow actually rotating in the hand at release approx. 270 degrees. The unique design of the bow requires that the bow actually be torqued or twisted in full draw to make the arrow fly straight.
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(end quoted text)

Provided FYI, for those that are curious about the subject matter.

What I find interesting myself is the high pull strength of these old bows, given that they were never designed to punch through plate or tightly-woven chain steel, as were the western bows of the same era.

Potatoman may need to significantly revise (upwards) the damage of the archers in his mod, as well as increase their gold cost. I also agree with Osium that the mod should definitely include mounted archers.

[ January 29, 2004, 20:32: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[Saber Cherry]

Thanks for the link! I put it with my other Dominions links, right next to this armor guide.

[Osium]

I believe the reason why the pull was around 40 pounds, was due to the fact the grip for the bow was located 1/3 of the way up. This means that significant poundage is going to exert a fair ammount of torque on your wrist to draw the bow and fire it accurately.

A good point was made, the arrows the japanese used were designed not for punching through thick metal armors, but for cutting bambo armor/lamenated armor or punching through it which is significantly less difficult to penetrate than something made of metal. This may also be a reason why the draw is seemingly lower than other bows of equal size, note I am going by modern useage of the bow. In fuedal times the bows very likely were strung more tightly but I still do not think in combat where volume of arrows is required you would want a bow strung THAT tightly simply due to the pressures exerted on the wrists because of its assymetrical design.

[ January 30, 2004, 00:06: Message edited by: Osium ]

[Arryn]

I've noticed a significant omission in the .dm file for the mod:

The mounted units lack the #mounted command signifying they are mounted troops. I found this out when I saw that my Daimyo had a foot slot, and mounted commanders aren't supposed to have feet slots. You will also need to adjust the base enc for both units upwards to a value of 5 (currently they are set to a value of 1), as per the mod instructions (section 6.29 of the doc), in order for the units to have the correct enc values.

I edited the Version of the mod that I'm playing with to test all the suggestions I've been making, along with those that Potatoman was making himself, and so far they seem to make things considerably more balanced, at least as far as my present engagement with Ulm (currently on turn 23). I'm an impatient gal and I didn't want to wait for the next mod Version.

My genin are a fair counter to Ulms HI. The samurai pin them in place from the front and the ninjas hit the HI from the rear, while other ninjas go after enemy archers. Ulm counters my ninjas by shredding them with missile fire as they move. Ninjas are remarkably vulnerable to archery, which really shouldn't be surprising. Given that the ninjas now cost almost 3x a samurai (in gold), you definitely feel the loss of each one. Which should discourage folks from just making ninjas when they should instead build "combined arms" forces.

[Potatoman]

Nice catch on the mounted units. I don't know how I missed it.

Thanks for all the resources on Kyudo, very interesting stuff. Version 2.00 will see a more historically accurate representation of the Samurai Archer, with higher cost and attributes to reflect his elite background.

Thanks for putting the mod up on Illwinter, Kristoffer. 1.02 is the currently the latest Version availible to download, though Version 2.0 is almost ready for when the next level of modding tools are released.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Nice catch on the mounted units.

Thanks!

Here's another one for you, also on the mounted units. Both units need the following command added/changed (it's missing for the Daimyo): #weapon "Hoof" 56

Without specifying the number '56', the attack will be with the default unshod hoof (which is nbr 55) doing zero base damage. With 56, the base damage is 10 (see table #3 in the doc). Quite a difference.

By the way, in the changes I've made to your mod that I'm playing with, I've replaced the lance of the samurai horseman with a composite bow. Two reasons: (1) AFAIK, the lance (in its western form) was not used in Japan (if you really feel the need, then use a "long spear", which the Japanese did have), and (2) the mod needs a mounted samurai archer. I don't see the need for two separate mounted troops, so I just gave a bow to the existing one. Besides, again AFAIK, all mounted samurai had bows anyway. (Well, most samurai, period, used bows. But that's quibbling.)

With regards to the use of the lance or spear by mounted warriors, the traditional employment of cavalry in Japan was to harry the foe from the flanks with archery, and/or with quick dashes culminating in slashing attacks, with the cavalry breaking off to reform and repeat. The terrain in Japan, as well as the lack of a need to punch through heavy steel plate, more or less precluded the use of lancer-style thrusts up the middle to drive wedges into the midst of foes. The lack of the lance is also why the Japanese did not develop the anti-lancer weapon known as the pike. Lack of plate armor is also (in large part) why Japan did not develop firearms. If the weapons you have are good enough to defeat the armor of your opponents, you do not need to spend valuable resources (time, money, intellect) on making better weapons. Well, that's more than enough lecturing for one post.

Thanks for all the resources on Kyudo, very interesting stuff.

My pleasure.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Both units need the following command added/changed (it's missing for the Daimyo): #weapon "Hoof" 56

Footnote: something about this command appears to be bugged. When I examine the units, the damage is still shown as '0' rather than '10' as the docs say it should. Unless the docs are wrong ...

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Arryn:
Both units need the following command added/changed (it's missing for the Daimyo): #weapon "Hoof" 56

Footnote: something about this command appears to be bugged. When I examine the units, the damage is still shown as '0' rather than '10' as the docs say it should. Unless the docs are wrong ...

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There are two hooves, an "animal hoof" and a "mount hoof". You want #55, the mount hoof. Check the sticky equipment stat list, it's pretty good about such things.

But I think you just specify the number OR the name, not both, so be careful about that.

EDIT: Except it looks list the list is wrong; I'll change it. You do in fact want #56. Anyway, I think the problem is that you're double-specifying; just use 56, not 56 and "hoof".

[ January 30, 2004, 07:38: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]