Haida Gwaii Mod (This round of beta closed)

[Foodstamp]

I am glad your enjoying the mod. In the next version of the beta, expect a return of the Sacred Coyote!

I am kicking around the idea of adding another recruitable animal unit, something amphibious for the Voice of the Killer Whales to lead around. I will consider making that guy sacred if it fits thematically.

I am open to suggestions for a 3rd pretender. I created the two that are currently in the mod a few months ago. At the time my goal was to create a support/bless chasis and a middle of the road pretender. I think the Crest Pole and the Raven serve those roles well.

The Moksgmol being powerful is one of the strengths of Haida Gwaii. If you think that guy is powerful, wait until you summon the Frenzied Moksgmol who may be getting bumped up to sacred status next beta.

The mythologies of the various peoples this mod represents is a bit too broad for me to sum up in one post. But let me try to give you a gist of the backbone of their beliefs:


Their people are divided through a moiety system, meaning they trace their lineage back to two distinct sources, the Raven and the Eagle. Different families believe they are descended from different animals and there are strict rules about who you can marry etc. based upon which moiety your particular animal is part of.

This belief system is a recurring theme in their fables. Animals take on human characteristics and are just as an important in the stories as the human characters.


The first obvious place to look for information on the Haida in particular is Wikipedia, but surprisingly there is not much there about their people.

I would suggest doing a google search for the following terms as well:

"Potlatch"
"Raven steals the sun"
"Haida fish carver"
"Haida weapons"

These searches should yield some websites with information to help you see where I am coming from in this mod.

I should add that the nation is named for the Haida, but it contains atleast one element that is not Haida at all, and that is the Kachina.

The Kachina comes from Pueblo beliefs and I worked the idea into this mod because I don't think the Kachina is ever going to work its way into a Dominions mod any other way because I doubt anyone is going to do a Pueblo mod

Thanks for the great feedback, I hope the links and terms to search for yield some good results if you are interested in learning more about the Haida or any of the First tribes.

[HoneyBadger]

I'll definitely check out the sites.

I don't know. Considering there are hundreds of different Kachina (I used to wear a silver Kachina emblem around my neck, until it was stolen), a Pueblo/Anasazi nation is certainly concievable. Could even include sacred coyotes in there.

For that matter, are coyotes indigenous to the Haida ancestral lands? I would-in my more or less ignorance on the subject-assume the wolf would be more totemnic. I'd like to see a sacred wolf in the game, anyway-just the standard wolf, only sacred class.

A suggestion for a sacred but recruitable water creature would be the Pike. Tough and dangerous for river fish, and they can get quite large-but not so large as to be overwhelming or unbalancing. Maybe the sacred pike even goes berserk?

I imagine the snapping turtle is part of their mythos too. Just a thought, but what if they had a summonable sacred version of the Asp-Turtle? Now that would be a powerful amphibious summons.

I summoned a bunch of frenzied Moksgmol and they tore apart a tribe of lion warriors. For a level 4 conjuration though, they should be sacred.

Suggestion: Combine the two, make them a level 2 summon, and just give Moksgmol berserk ability, and maybe code them so that if the trampling bear (no berserk) form "dies" it "transforms" into the Frenzied Moksgmol (berserk) form. This is kinda-sorta-maybe like what bears do in the wild-walk around on all fours until they're threatened or ticked off.

It'd be interesting to see a unit go from trampler to standard fighter, and I bet quite effective on the battlefield.

Ok, I'm gonna go read up on the subject...

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, it's really hard to track much down, but then the subject deserves a devotion of time that I don't currently have. I'll add to this as I find the time, but in the meantime,

Some additional thoughts:

I can't find any direct references to the snapping turtle in Haida culture so far, but I know it features in many Aboriginal American myths.

The mountain goat was a very important animal to the Haida, and maybe that would make a good additional recruitable sacred animal.

The salmon was also very important to the Haida as was the frog and the fox, and probably the porcupine.

The Haida carved and smoked pipes. The smoke and the pipes themselves, they believed, had supernatural power, connecting the Haida to their ancestors and aiding their ancestors to find their way in the Afterlife.

The Haida and the Tlinglit seem to have been the most closely related, but the How Raven Stole the Sun is a myth that occurs all throughout Canada and Alaska.

There is some evidence that the Haida had contact with China circa 1000 bce or more recently-including the use of similar armor by the Haida and the Chinese at this time.

The Haida used and traded copper, including copper shields-these shields may have been purely or primarily symbolic though, as signs of wealth and tools of barter.

You have shamanistic units, but no overall Haida Chieftain (perhaps "Tyee" means chief?). The Haida Chief used a symbolic carved raven rattle during ceremonies. The Haida Chief also owned and used the most copper items-possibly copper weapons and armor, had a distinctive cloak and head-dress, and would be another candidate for the sailing/banner abilities.

The Haida had secret societies whos members were supposedly possessed by spirits and then exorcised during their initiation. They learned of these secret societies from captured Kwakwaka'wakw, their neighbors to the south

A weapon used by the Haida during river and sea battles against others in canoes was a large carved stone ring attached to a woven rope that they would hurl against and into the other canoe.

Are you intending the Haida more to be representative of all Canadian tribes? or just specifically Haida? The first option provides more opportunities for "legitimate" modding and allows for the fact that the Haida were widespread traders.

[Foodstamp]

Tyee indeed means chief. I was hoping you would come across the canoe smasher! What a fantastic weapon.

It is also worth noting that the peoples of that region cut down massive redwoods and carved insane canoes out of those trees. It is speculated that they were able to sail all over the place in those canoes, as far away as Asia and as far north as the Artic circle.

I am not sure about you HoneyBadger, but I am immensely impressed with the tribes of that region. Once you read about what they accomplished before the Europeans came along, WOW, it is simply incredible. They were able warriors, great craftsmen, they had a complex culture and economy, and achieved many incredible things that have slipped into the realm of obscurity.

The Sgaana Tyee represents the banner/sailing chiefton role.

Originally this mod was supposed to represent all of the pacific northwest tribes, but I focused more on the Haida Gwaii overtime. I felt that since they had a natural barrier from the other tribes, that their culture would be just a small bit less generic to the other cultures in the area who were based in the mainland. That being said, you will find splashes of the other cultures mixed in. Some of the words used are even from Inuit and not specifically Haida language.

[HoneyBadger]

I am indeed impressed by them. I'm glad I've gotten to know the Haida a little bit better, thanks to your mod.

I don't think it would hurt the originality of your Haida mod to include some of the themes they would have most likely been familiar with, but didn't originate themselves.

I'm kind of surprised at the lack of a Sasquatch He'd make a good stealthy summon, I think.

If you are going to do a specifically (or atleast regionally) Haida mod, and are concerned that the Pueblo people won't be represented, I'll be glad to help you create a Pueblo mod, and you can keep true to your vision.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, I've actually got an idea for an SC Pretender for Haida (my personal favorite.) called the Moby.

I found a beautiful picture of a grey sperm whale, so I'm going to get you a picture of that, and I'll do all the work to get atleast the picture mod-ready.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking a huge amount of hp (300 or more), good natural protection, size 6 trampler, a bite attack, massive str, good combat movement and 3 province move, poor def, poor perc, fair to decent MR, natural rejuvenation, 5% regeneration (maybe) and a cold aura-to represent a wake. 100% resistant to cold, 50% resistant to poison. Good supply bonus. No starting paths (alternately, 1 path water), 3 misc item slots, aquatic only (if possible, unable to ever leave the water, even wearing an amulet of the fish). 80 points to increase. Not too expensive, maybe even 0 points if it has no water path, since it's not too different from an Ancient Kraken, only with less ability to gain magical paths.

[PDF]

HoneyBadger said:
Ok, I've actually got an idea for an SC Pretender for Haida (my personal favorite.) called the Moby.

I found a beautiful picture of a grey sperm whale, so I'm going to get you a picture of that, and I'll do all the work to get atleast the picture mod-ready.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking a huge amount of hp (300 or more), good natural protection, size 6 trampler, a bite attack, massive str, good combat movement and 3 province move, poor def, poor perc, fair to decent MR, natural rejuvenation, 5% regeneration (maybe) and a cold aura-to represent a wake. 100% resistant to cold, 50% resistant to poison. Good supply bonus. No starting paths (alternately, 1 path water), 3 misc item slots, aquatic only (if possible, unable to ever leave the water, even wearing an amulet of the fish). 80 points to increase. Not too expensive, maybe even 0 points if it has no water path, since it's not too different from an Ancient Kraken, only with less ability to gain magical paths.

It'll fit an aquatic nation, but Haida is a land nation and I can't imagine an "amphibious" whale

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, but they also get most of their food from the ocean and it's technically an amphibious nation.

I don't think that every single Pretender has to share every single physical quality with it's worshippers, even considering Roleplaying, do you?

That would kind of preclude flying Pretenders worshipped by human nations. A whale Pretender is certainly something the Haida reasonably might worship, just as certain south-seas cultures worship a great shark, others equate the Devil with a giant manta-ray, quite a few cultures consider the salmon to be holy, and many, many cultures worship the alligator/crocodile.

Having a purely aquatic SC Pretender gives the Haida a strategic choice also, enabling them to expand underwater more easily, perhaps on the level of Agartha.

[HoneyBadger]

That and, as stated above, I really like SCs. There aren't enough true SCs in the game.

[Amhazair]

HoneyBadger said:
I don't think that every single Pretender has to share every single physical quality with it's worshippers, even considering Roleplaying, do you?

Absolutely not. What will happen however when someone selects this pretender, starts his game, and the huge whale ends up in a land province? (the nations capitol)