H2 priests: Why, when, how?

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Ah yes vfb, in the case of MA Ctis they might be worth it. Their preaching is more useful there also, due to the income boost from dominion.

I recruited about 3-4 H2 priests with MA Caelum in a game I played recently. The one with Juffos that had too low VP requirements. I was using them to lead elephants, cast sermon, keep my dom up (I had really good scales) and then to stealth preach.

I also recruited a pair of the L2 Priest (Level 1 F? Woo D priest/mages for MA Marignon in Beardaxe to lead troops, cast sermon, and preach. It's been a good investment.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Sombre

So which nations with h2 priests do you recruit them for?

At the moment it seems people are talking theory and citing niche examples where having +2 morale makes a difference. I think it's much more common that it makes no difference and the national H2 is a waste. And it's silly to compare it with just a support mage slot - it should be compared with a researching, site searching, ritual spamming mage slot. The general run of the mill mage you make almost every turn wherever you can. While the H2 is a near complete waste if he doesn't toddle off and support an army, that isn't true of the mage, so don't restrict the comparison as if it is.

Well that's a silly run of logic. It's not like you have to recruit a H2 mage on turn two and have him sitting around with a thumb up his *** w. It's easy enough to produce him, and pack him up with an army a few turns before a big battle.

My point is that if your decision is between building one more mage to sit around and research, or building one more combat support mage, then I would rather have the H2 priest packed up with my main army.

I mean, maybe you don't build any armies over 50 troops, but I do, and I'd like them to have more morale than the enemy troops. Especially the heavy infantry.

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

I don't think it's silly logic at all. You're talking about producing an H2 priest instead of a mage fairly early in the game.

I deduce early in the game, because there's no way the effectiveness of sermon of courage competes with even lesser spells later in the game and you're talk about throwing him in with a mundane army that needs an extra 2 points of morale on a bunch of troops.

How much research is the mage going to get done over the course of the game? He can fill a support role then later go research, or more likely the other way around. The priest can't.

I'm not saying H2 mages are useless, I'm simply saying I've never built a pure H2 national mage and I don't follow the logic that because sermon of courage can be useful (which is certainly true) it would be worth doing so over a mage slot.

[Baalz]

Originally Posted by Sombre

So which nations with h2 priests do you recruit them for?

At the moment it seems people are talking theory and citing niche examples where having +2 morale makes a difference. I think it's much more common that it makes no difference and the national H2 is a waste. And it's silly to compare it with just a support mage slot - it should be compared with a researching, site searching, ritual spamming mage slot. The general run of the mill mage you make almost every turn wherever you can. While the H2 is a near complete waste if he doesn't toddle off and support an army, that isn't true of the mage, so don't restrict the comparison as if it is.

Well, a direct comparison is a bit difficult because they fill such different roles, but to sum up:

1) H2 priests are pretty cheap, so recruiting a couple (rather than more expensive premium units) will get you almost an extra 800 gold fort in some cases. Certainly it'll speed up getting your second fort if you're doing this early.

2) Research is important, no doubt, but I think you're completely discounting the benefit a H2 priest gives you outside of combat. Pushing your dominion to cover those border territories which otherwise wouldn't be is significant. Not only do you get the benefits from your scales (which is often drastic), this is also the area you're most likely to be fighting in and also right where it's usually unwise to put up temples. Aside from preaching, you can gain a non-inconsiderable astral income from site searching with the priests.

3) As Agema mentions, if the priest is responsible for a fight being in dominion which otherwise wouldn't, it's really a 4 swing in morale for your friendlies and a -2 for the enemy. You tell me, is there a big difference in troops with an 8 morale and ones with 12? This type of swing can *certainly* be significant even in the late game. How much is it worth for your blockers (soaking up those big evocation spells the enemy is dropping) to stick it out a couple extra turns so your own mages get some more shots in? As pointed out, this doesn't make a difference for lopsided fights, but it's going to win you the close ones.

What more could you ask out of a unit costing 100 gold? Certainly they're not as useful as a 400 gold big mage across the board, but they can carry their weight. It's also kind of silly to ask for examples of when they make sense to use, several suggestions have been made already - Arco, C'tis, Abysia - well, using your mage/priest as a priest at least. There actually aren't that many straight h2 national priests, but I think they have a role most any time you've got them. They also make sense to recruit non-nationally when you've got the opportunity.

[JimMorrison]

Also, because of the way national casters are designed, it's true that few of them fall under the "aren't useful except for Sermon" clause.

Just 2 of the last 3 direct examples - Caelum's Seraphines are stealthy, and can fly. And Marignon's H2 is an Inquisitor, no?

I think Sermon is of rare actual use in expansion (if you are suffering much attrition, you are probably doing it wrong to begin with!), but it definitely is of great value in those BIG fights, where a large portion of what decides the battle, is whose line starts breaking first. When your more timid chaff breaks too early, all your elites get swarmed and chewed to pieces - and you wasted a lot of buff casting. Some nations in particular have mages more suited to casting little spells over and over, rather than dropping a few Thunder Strikes, and napping. With an endurance army, Sermon is certainly of more value than with a shock (no pun intended) army.

[Agema]

H2 priests can be very important for bless tactics whenever you don't have an H3 handy. You want to bless your troops quickly. If you've been recruiting H1s you'll need more, and they'll have detracted from you building national mages instead. If you don't have enough holy power you'll have had to put your sacreds and Hold & Attack, which limits their tactical usefulness or potentially exposes them to more damage from ranged attacks.

[llamabeast]

Why do you say a swing of 4 morale Baalz? I thought dominion gave +/- 1 morale.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Why do you say a swing of 4 morale Baalz? I thought dominion gave +/- 1 morale.

I think he means you are preaching the area to be your dominion (so morale goes from -1 to +1, ie a swing of two) and you are then able to cast SoC in combat (giving +2 to morale, thus going from -1 to +3). While I can see it happen at times, I don't think it will happen *that* often (but I might of course be all wrong on this ).

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Why do you say a swing of 4 morale Baalz? I thought dominion gave +/- 1 morale.

Bah :O Baalz attributed that to the wrong person. I said it originally.

+1 for your troops
-1 for theirs
+2 from SoC

And actually, in Beardaxe, I just watched a battle where morale was /the/ deciding factor with both sides spamming SoC. If Baalz had gone in without his SoC prophet, he definitely wouldn't have stood any chance. Notably he lost the battle, but that was because the opposing army had a free level 2 priest from PD spamming SoC which made every single one of the squads stay in the fight until the bitter end.

Jazzepi

[Agema]

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

Bah :O Baalz attributed that to the wrong person. I said it originally.

Heh. Quite true. I first mentioned in this file that your priests should be out preaching to affect scales.