OT - Who wants to write a "roguelike" game? How about a 4X?

[Loser]

Originally posted by Voidhawk:
I'd say you only have to 'depend' on your imagination for the first few games you play. I remember when I first started on NetHack, I had a very tough time dealing with the graphics (or lack thereof). But I figured there had to be something to it since there are so many gamers who swear by it, so I hung in there.

Now I don't even 'see' the ASCII anymore. It's hard to describe, but once you realize how deep and ridiculously addictive the game is, nothing else really matters!

I don't even see the code anymore. I just see blond, brunette, red head.

[David E. Gervais]

So someone wants to make a roguelike game eh?

I'm sure that you're gonna want some nifty graphic tiles right?

http://pousse.rapiere.free.fr/tome/index.htm

You can find all my 'free' tiles here. (you can also find some work screens I posted in the Dungeon Odyssey forum. The screens are full of monster body parts etc so you can have fun creating your own frankenstein works.

Cheers!

[David E. Gervais]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
roguelike's don't have graphics. those which do, take your pick:
A) Aren't roguelike's.
B) Should be bLasted off the face of the universe like the corruption they are.

Grrrrrrr, I lean in and grab narf by the collar and pull him close so that he can hear my low raspy whisper you know narf, it's like this,.. the original rogue was 'text' based (aka ascii) because the machine it was programmed on did not have 'graphic' capabilities. I think, (and I'm not alone) that people that say 'roguelikes should be text-based exclusively' are wrong. It would be the same as saying Computer games should only have 4 colors, because the first ones used CGA and that was limited to 4 colors. So it's not computer-gamelike if it has more colors or higher resolution.

I release narf and pat him gently on the head now be a good rat and go play in the sandbox.



Cheers!

[ January 28, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

MOUSE! i'm a MOUSE!

we do have 'roguelike' games that have graphics. there called >Adventure< or >RPG< games. by saying roguelike, i am refering to a specific type of adventure or rpg game where the graphics are text-based. to call a graphical adventure or rpg a roguelike would reduce the classification to redundancy.

so there. *bounces a peice of cheese off David's head.*

[ January 28, 2004, 19:43: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[David E. Gervais]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
MOUSE! i'm a MOUSE!

so there. *bounces a peice of cheese off David's head.*

With the reflexes of a cat I catch the cheeze before it hits the floor and pop it into my mouth, mmmmmm, cheddar, good stuff.

Narf Have you ever played a game called Angband? Nethack? ToME? All these are considered 'Roguelike' but they also have the option to play with 'graphic' tiles. So according to you these games STOP being a roguelike game when you toggle the graphics on? Bzzzzzzzzz, Wrong! Roguelike is a 'type' of gameplay experience. Not a 'set' of text display routines. by your definition to be roguelike a game needs to be text based. Does this mean the computer Version of 'hangman' that uses a text display is a roguelike?

You are mixing apples and oranges, and while apples go good with cheeze, I doubt that oranges are.

Cheers!

[ January 28, 2004, 20:17: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by David E. Gervais:
You are mixing apples and oranges, and while apples go good with cheeze, I doubt that oranges are.

I have had oranges with motzerella cheeze. Not on it, but side by side. It may not go as well as apples and cheeze, but the tastes are not uncomplimentary.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Narf Have you ever played a game called Angband? Nethack? ToME? All these are considered 'Roguelike' but they also have the option to play with 'graphic' tiles. So according to you these games STOP being a roguelike game when you toggle the graphics on? Bzzzzzzzzz, Wrong! Roguelike is a 'type' of gameplay experience. Not a 'set' of text display routines. by your definition to be roguelike a game needs to be text based. Does this mean the computer Version of 'hangman' that uses a text display is a roguelike?

yes, they do indeed stop being roguelike. experience? any very well-designed RPG can give you your 'roguelike' experience, which seems to be about depth of playability. but, again, calling something with graphics a roguelike reduces the classification to redundancy. so there.

[David E. Gervais]

Ok, Narf I'll set the record straight and give you a history lesson at the same time..

The origins of Rogue...

Michael Toy and Glenn Wichman, two students in University of Santa Cruz, California, experimented with curses library. They both had enjoyed playing Adventure which was the first text adventure game. After making some simple games with curses, they began to write a graphical adventure game. Michael Toy did most of the programming and Glenn contributed ideas to the project and coined the name "Rogue".

One of their main goals to create a game they could enjoy playing by themselves. Most existing adventure-type games had predesigned plot and world which remained exactly the same every time you played it. Michael and Glenn decided to make Rogue more random. Rogue build the dungeon using the pseudo-random number generator, so the game was different every time you played it, making it possible that even the creators of the game could be surprised by it.


So if you notice the bold text "they began to write a graphical adventure game." you can see that the original rogue was indeed designed to be a 'graphical adventure' the fact that it uses 'curses' instead of bitmaps does not make it 'less-graphical'. They were simply using the tools of the day. (and making very innovative use of the tools too.)

What does this mean? It means that the original 'Rogue' was always meant to be a 'graphical' game and therefore all 'Roguelike' games should also be considered 'graphical' and weather they use 'ascii' or 'tiles' , has no bearing on their being roguelike. What makes games roguelike is 'Random' dungeons, treasure, monsters, multiple levels and a hot concept called 'replayability'.

Rogue is the 'Grandfather of crpg'. Give Rogue the full credit it is due. Don't just say it's the first text-based crpg, it is so much more than that.

I rest my case.

So what do I win?

Cheers!

[narf poit chez BOOM]

fine, so RPG's with random dungeons and stuff can call themselves 'roguelikes'.

what do you win? cheese!

*drops 2 tons of cheese on David*

but what do you do when all RPG's have random dungeons, huh? what do you do then? didn't think of that, did you?

[Puke]

no, diablo cant call itsself roguelike just because it has random dungeons. and it isnt unroguelike just because it does not use ascii. you can argue any similarity or difference, but the 'heart' of the genre is going to be specific to any individuals interperatation. which is why you both have your undies in a bunch. rogue was ASCII based, and was tile based, was turn based, had random dungeons, involved a quest for artifact retrieval, etc, etc. you can say that the presence or lack of any of those things makes it roguelike or unroguelike, but honestly youre just *****in.

you guys are playing two extremes of the arguement, and i must insist that you quit yer *****in. there are many tilesets for rogue, and the Version that I played the most of, was written by one of the original two designers as an ATARI ST port, and indeed used a graphical tileset. the same tileset that is still popular, and which is used to derive many of the larger tilesets in existance today.

there are many efforts at creating 3d isometric tilesets, and some open GL ones. my favorite way to play is with the classic ascii characters, but if there was a well done graphical set, with animated tiles, i'd play that too. Honestly, the Version that I find most attractive is the set that uses OPEN-GL rendered ascii characters, so the floor is a bunch of flat '.' characters, and the '@' sign and other symbols stand up in 3d.

I have often wanted to take some custom art to a print shop to be placed on a t-shirt, with a 3-d @ symbol wielding a shield and flaming sword, with a limp & sign on the ground before it.

As an interesting note (that most folks are unaware of, so i thought i'd share), the original default character name for the ST port of Rogue (by one of the original designers, as i mentioned) was Rodney. You were, of course, trying to recover the Amulet of Yendor. In Nethack, you are also trying to recover the Amulet of Yendor. But its a bit more detailed, and you have to take it from a near-demigod wizard (the wizard of yendor). His name? Rodney.