Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.

[the Vanishag]

I feel bad - I think it was actually my comment about some of the sprites looking "cartoony" that prompted sombre's joke... and then everything went downhill fast.

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that, like it or not, race is still a big issue, at least here in the U.S., and while prejudice here is increasingly anti-Hispanic, living in a college-town in Florda, I can tell you that there is still a "white" side and a "black" side of town, and that all of the development money goes to the white side. Faux-plantation style apartment buildings with boutique shops on the 1st floor were sprouting up like toadstools after the rain until the market crashed, but even at the height of the "boom," east Gainesville couldn't get a [SELF-CENSORED] Walmart. Seriously. Residents campaigned for it, and Walmart offered to put one in - but only if the City would sell them a public park in west Gainesville to build a Super Walmart and Sam's Club Complex on.

And me? I protested the proposed sale of the park and felt guilty at the same time. AND I worried a lot before posting Alchera because I was afraid that I'd wind up offending someone out of ignorance.

So, what does all this have to do with the recent unpleasantness on this thread? Not much, I guess. I just figured if I told a long, rambling, confessional and slightly embarrassing story about myself it'd distract everyone from the argument.

--

"Mackenzie is half demon," Dee said. "Her true self is as much a wuss as it is a demon. [...] Is that word insulting in and of itself? I apologize deeply," Dee said, bowing. "I had inferred, based on the people who used it and the context in which it was used, that it referred to a finer quality which was being disparaged by tone."

[Squirrelloid]

Sorry for being somewhat off-topic, but I wanted to comment on where you saw potential existing for more nations.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

And I'd like to see a deep ocean nation. Right now we've got Atlantis-coastal, Oceania-main ocean, and R'Lyeh-which also appears to be coastal. Leaving the trenches untapped. And maybe the reefs. I've got a few ideas for both of those.

Atlantis is deep ocean - read their EA fluff, its right there in the manual/nation selection info.

Rlyeh also seems to be predominantly deep ocean, or at least ambiguous.

And of course Oceania has Coral King as a hero - which implies reef. Oceania is in general coastal - this 'main ocean' has no referrent. What do you think that is?

I think the general Ocean ecology is fairly well-tapped. Which isn't to say that different Ocean races occupying some of those same ecologies but with different concepts couldn't work. Although it could be rather hard to do...

(FWIW, the ocean is actually divided into shelf (coast), slope (bathyal), and abyssal plain with a few specialized ecologies - eg, Hadal depths (trench). Abyssal plain is so low energy that I can't imagine a civilization actually living there, not to mention there isn't much exciting about it - its just a wide swath of muck. Which leads me to conclude that Atlantis is either Hadal (up from trench habitats) or lower bathyal. Rlyeh is probably upper bathyal - nestled in a gorge that cuts into the continental shelf (a gorge is explicitly the location of EA, and since the star impacts there, thus of all eras, and you don't get deeper than upper bathyal and still have gorges). Oceania is obviously our shelf power.

I suppose you could argue for an open-ocean power, except you can't build fortresses there... Or really have a civilization at all...)

And someone really ought to do something for Wales, maybe Scotland. The Isle of Man is also a possibility.

Seriously? We're already overloaded with gaelic nations. Marveni, Man, Eriu/Tir Na Og, Fomoria. Gaelic nations are the *last* thing we need more of. Especially since the mythological material for, eg, Wales/Scottland is really incomplete, and the king Arthur material is in use by Man already - making it as 'Welsh' as you're going to get with the source material.

Ok, i take that back. Greco-roman nations are the last thing we need more of, followed closely by gaelic nations.

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What seem to really be missing (though I do not have exhaustive knowledge of the existing mods) are:
-Islamic/Arabian nation, easily 3 eras here.
-Persia, easily 3 eras here
-Steppes horse tribes (Huns, Mongols, etc...), probably 2 eras (incl. Samarkand here).

Pacific Islanders seem to have a good mod, at least in development (don't recall how finished it is), which would be the other major hole.

That gets us at least nominal coverage of central asia and mesopotamia (which is actually woefully undercovered - Abysia is the only Mesopotamian nation, and only represents Sumer/Babylon - and then only mildly).

After those big blank areas are filled in, some other possible nation themes:
-Finnish, based on the Kalevala. Yeah, its european, but its different enough from all its neighbors and well documented enough you could squeeze an era out of this.
-MA Bogarus, likely based primarily on Nart's Saga. Russia only getting one era is kind of sad. They should at least have some MA representation. Nart's Saga represents the Caucusus, and so is at least sort of pushing into/towards Asia.
-Possibly a Mayan and/or Incan nation (although it could be hard to differentiate from Aztec-inspired Mictlan)
-Islamic Spain. Separate enough politically and culturally from the islamic empire historically to justify a separate existence - 1 era.
-Georgia (ie, the former Russian republic), focusing mainly on the Prester John legends. One era. Possibly combine it with Crusader States history.

But these are all sidelines.

I'm not sure how much more you can do with Africa for nations. Nubia was actually a really good choice because it has abundant history due to its middle eastern ties. But as you move farther south you end up with tribal societies that never really formed nations until they were imposed upon them, with the sole exception of the Zulu (who could make for a cool LA nation if there's enough diversity of material), and who have no recorded history.

Zanzibar, Mali, and other parts of N. Africa (saharan and mediterranean) are mostly part of a greater islamic nation/empire historically, and could easily represent specialized troops of such a nation from an appropriate time period. Civ IV made the reach of making Mali a playable civ based solely on the era of Timbuktu as a center of research and islamic culture - and what they were doing was fishing for African nations to de-eurocentrize the game, a noble goal but the source material is thin.

Similar to Africa, N. America is hard to represent because what few nations there were left little evidence of their culture behind. And one could certainly argue that N. Am is better represented than it has any hope of being, with LA Atlantis being very much an Inuit-inspired nation.

At the end of the day you can only have so many nations that amount to 'unarmored or poorly armored people with crude weapons'. Yes, they have different mythologies, but you end up with a lot of nations that are basically the same with variant summons and slightly different national mage paths. You also get at most one era out of many of these. Not to mention Mictlan seems to have stolen liberally from other american traditions - eagle warriors would have been one of the most thematic units for a possible N. Am. nation, and have nothing to do with the Aztecs.

Basically, cultural breadth is good, but go where the source material is.

(Edit: If I do a mod, it'll be the Islamic one. I have ideas. I need to figure out how to do artwork).

[HoneyBadger]

You have some good points, Squirrelloid (Scotland/Wales/Isle of Man would be nice to see, but there are higher priorities), although a lot of the ideas you've mentioned--Kalevala in particular--are already in the process of being modded in. Myself, I'm already working on a Persia-inspired EA Nation (Partha: The Ageless Empire).

Descriptions notwithstanding, I disagree that either Atlantis or R'lyeh EA capture the idea of a real deep ocean Empire. The Aboleths are muck-dwellers who interact extensively with humans and humanoids, and the Atlantians are humanoids who also interact with humans (other than aggressively). I'd prefer to see perhaps something like a "Deep Atlantian" Nation that involved indigenous deep ocean critters like krakens and tube worms, for instance. Or maybe a Nation that didn't rely on humanoid troops at all. I had an idea for one of those a while back, but so far it's a dead end.

As well, I've also got plans to at some point do an underwater MA Nation based on the Mamluks that will involve a dying Aboleth species and their increasingly powerful slaves, and I've got atleast a vague idea for a subterranean Aboleth Nation in the LA.

As far as Northern America goes, I'm interested in being involved in atleast two mods so far: One will be a 'Giant' Nation (North East coast and into Canada, with minor Norse influences), while the other will be an undead and shapeshifting subterranean Nation (Western, centered around the Grand Canyon). A third might be based on the Kachina, but I don't have a lot of ideas so far. If anything, it might become an era of the "Grand Canyon" Nation. I don't see a problem with modding out the Eagle warriors and modding something more traditional in. Condor warriors? More appropriate for South America, I would think? Leaving the Eagles for another Nation's use.

Spain's an excellent idea. I think that it could support atleast an EA Nation (your Moorish theme) and a more Spanish oriented MA Nation. Probably a LA Portuguise/Spanish Nation as well.

It would be extremely cool to see an ocean-going Nation based on Venice, Rhodes, Malta, and Sicily, with every era represented. Possibly something with the Barbary Coast, as well, or just integrating the idea of African and Arabian pirates.

The Zulu should absolutely get their own Nation. I've got some ideas there, having researched their myths. I also want to work on one involving pygmies (Hoburgs?) and dinosaurs, themed via the Congo. Don't know if I'll ever get around to it, though, but if anyone's interested, I have some ideas, and I guarantee fun, if not a lot of consistency. Mali can easily be adapted into it's own Nation, as well, even ignoring the Islamic influence. It practically writes itself, infact. My Aksum Nation already draws from the Ghana Empire, but it might be better to take some of the material from there and apply it to a Wagadou based Nation? Quite possibly with Lobi influences. Since there's really almost too much for a single Nation there. I've wanted to do something with Zanzibar for a while now. The idea currently is to make it the LA Aksum, with Islam themes becoming predominant over Christian influences, with a middle Nation exploring the role of missionaries in Africa, the sailing ability of Ethiopians, and the rise of Vodou. There's yet another EA Nation that I'd like to explore, involving the pictograms of Tsodilo (the site of possibly the very first human myths-atleast that we know about. Some of the artifacts date back 70,000 years). The general idea would be a snake/lizardman-oriented culture (something like the Naga) with heavy access to illusions and constructs, influenced by Botswana, bushmen, and generic South African themes. Possibly an EA, eventually giving rise to the Zulu?

I could probably come up with several more for Africa, to be honest. Great Zimbabwe has always struck a chord with me, for instance, even if the material is a little light.

It would also be interesting to do something involving the Nasca pictograms in South America, and the supposed (rather laughable, but involving a lot of material to draw from) "chariots of the gods" connection to UFOs. I could easily see the Inca being involved here. The Olmec are also of interest.

Korea is a must.

I also really want to see something based on Java, Indonesia, and Micronesia (not sure what yet), and Funan/Chenla/Khmer (I'm thinking EA, as a "homeland" for the Naga, rising in spirituality and might in the MA-with hydras-and later turning into an undead Nation after the Nagas are driven out.).

Finally, there are tons of other islands that have enough material that we should be able to cobble atleast one or a few Nations from them. Hawaii is the most obvious, and would add another jewel to North America's crown, without being derivative. If one takes all of the Caribbean, and perhaps throw in the Deep South and New Orleans as well, I think there could be another Nation there too.

I disagree about the idea of many of these cultures being locked into a "stone age" sensibility. We can choose to ignore or fudge that historic lock easily enough. After all, there are enough conspiracy theorists that propose these ancient peoples had better technology than we traditionally think they did, and that's a mythology all it's own. Africa certainly had iron, and the Americas had limited access to atleast copper, so giving them bronze is only a small leap of faith. Having more stone-age Nations has the benefit of making more technological Nations rarer and more special. too. Not a bad thing. After all, the biggest difference between them isn't whether they're using steel swords or not, it's their unique history and myths/spirituality.

[the Vanishag]

Wow, HoneyBadger, that's awesome. If/when I finish my Alchera "trilogy" (look for an "alpha" version of MA Alchera/Aotearoa soon), I'd be interested in collaborating on (really, any) of those.

I know that one of the things I had to "get over" in making EA Alchera was that neither the Australian Aborigines nor the Maori have an "empire building" period in their history. I concluded that that one one of the things I needed to imagine: what would such an empire have looked like?

Likewise about escaping the "stone age." MA Aotearoa will feature some heavier arms and armor, from trade, but also mixed feelings about their use. In the late era, I plan to have a mix of fully "modernized" units and more mystical "traditional" soldiers, just returned from the dreamtime.

I didn't mean to hijack your thread to talk about my own ideas... you just got me thinking.

A thought: a truly "deep" nation might have some "Deep One" Atlanteans as its most "shallow" units, and the rest would be non-hmost of the rest would be nonhumanoid and blind or have full darkvision. The Deep Ones could be their only immediately land-capable units. This would put them at a disadvantage in most games, but would be an interesting balance for games on "Wrap around Water" and similar mostly-ocean maps (I'm playing EA Atlantis in "Water War" right now, which is why this comes to mind).

my 2c

[HoneyBadger]

I don't mind. I'm happy to see more such ideas. Hijack away!