Trying to improve my MA Abyssia Pretender Design

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

This is the real arguement against lava warriors, it's not that they are terrible, they are just overpriced for what they are capable of. Humanbred are close to the best value infantry in MA, don't overlook them.

This nails it.
This is the real question of importance here.
Humanbreds do fare terrible vs certain indies and most human opponents though.Thats why i want to be flexible in resources.
Ok,i have never tried to mix in the expensive Salamanders,that should be working vs most indy provinces at least.But its till looks more like "turtling until the blood economy is running" if you not only skip lavas but also the Heavy Infantries for the early game(concerning sloth 3).

[Squirrelloid]

I see no need to respond to your comments about F9 blesses on lava warriors. Sure, if you're playing a blitz it might work, but in a real game this is just stupid, and anyone can see that. I've run a W9 bless on Jotunheim in a blitz before too, which is also stupid in a real game. The average game involves 8+ players. Lets talk about things that actually work.

Regarding contract timing:
Turn 11
Awake Great Sage T3S3H3G3L3Mg1 40RP (all paths but blood in varying amounts, ok, technically 39RP, +1 scales), CBM 1.7
Blood Boosters forged or forging: 2
slave income/trn: ~30-40, all non-capital, 3rd province coming online this turn for hunting.
Research completed: Construction 5+
Time to 1st contract: depends on whether i want to just empower or wait for constr 6. Assuming i just empower, which i can do next turn, the first contract will be forged on turn 13.

Note: this was in a very unlucky practice game which featured more bad events than good events despite the luck scales, and really nasty indies despite default settings that forced rather limited expansion routes (dark vines, jade amazons, lamia queen + horned serpents all next to capital, oh my). Also: 2nd fort is almost finished.

Edit:
Anyway, behind exactly 2 contracts, will likely catch up quickly, however, since i should be hitting 60 slaves/trn by turn 15 at the latest.
Other advantages: massive research lead, will be capable of forging boots of youth before the end of year 2 trivially. Full magic diversity on the pretender. Also, lantern spamming by turn 16, especially since i won't be wasting 50f empowering in fire.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I see no need to respond to your comments about F9 blesses on lava warriors. Sure, if you're playing a blitz it might work, but in a real game this is just stupid, and anyone can see that. I've run a W9 bless on Jotunheim in a blitz before too, which is also stupid in a real game. The average game involves 8+ players. Lets talk about things that actually work.

Regarding contract timing:
Turn 11
Awake Great Sage T3S3H3G3L3Mg1 40RP (all paths but blood in varying amounts), CBM 1.7
Blood Boosters forged or forging: 2
slave income/trn: ~30-40, all non-capital, 3rd province coming online this turn for hunting.
Free Slaves: ~20
Research completed: Construction 5+
Time to 1st contract: depends on whether i want to just empower or wait for constr 6. Assuming i just empower, which i can do next turn, the first contract will be forged on turn 13.

Note: this was in a very unlucky practice game which featured more bad events than good events despite the luck scales. Also: 2nd fort is almost finished.

Seriously,you are pretty unfriendly.
Have you ever tried fire 9 with MA Abysia yourself?
I did play it on cradle,9 player game,3 expert players.
I won it,normal settings.
Ok,we did use EDM as well,so that my F9 solar disc lead me to Ember Lords pretty quickly.But decisive has been my early game lead,rushing 2 players who didnt expect me to field falling fire/lava/Heavy Inf combos.
Besides,even with F9 you get blood entry,so that you at least can do somenthing for the endgame.
Plays a lot more different than W9 with Jotunheim bitz,since i field masses of troops overall and not just a few SC likes.
But thats the point.
There are so many variables/paramater you would have to ask before making an even slightly educated guess about someone elses strat,especially if you have never actually tried it yourself, that i am not seeing here.Keep on misjudging me as an obviously terrible player.Its ok.

regarding your timing:
Just LOL.
So,how many Warlocks did you built within the first year?
How many provinces did you have,because you put everything on research/blood hunt,it looks like you completley skipped expanding?
What about old age with your warlocks?
your scales are extremely luck dependant to get a fast start,whats your income?
Did you really hit B4 Warlocks,since you would need 3 boosters otherwise?
Did you mean empower to F1 or B4(big difference here for contract timing,since empowering to F1 doesnt delay contract forging)
Are you able to churn out a new contract nearly every turn right after you built your first?
If i got 2 more after the first year,but 6 more after the 2nd i still got dozens more devils,because of the stacking advantage.

Just to make it clear( will try your setup now),the setup i told you was realistically played ,Sp-tested and MP-tested,with a lot of expanding going on +aiming for 3 castles early on,even with a little site searching involved.
If i want to prove you the other extreme,i can stupidly just blood hunt my cap right from the start,take a fountain with F1B6 and churn out the first contract on turn 6,right after hitting constr 2

[Squirrelloid]

I empowered an F1S2B3 warlock in blood, because its cheaper overall since slaves are cheap. I couldve empowered an S2B4 in fire, but it anti-synergizes with rushing lantern spam (and as long as you're rushing construction...). I could have empowered earlier and not wasted a turn by empowering with fire.

G3 mitigates old age quite a bit, I had no old age problems at the end of year 1. Generally speaking, you might get 1 afflicted if you built nothing but warlocks (i had some demonbreds and apprentices, since they're more reasonable bloodhunters)

I really got a B4 warlock. It happens 25% of the time... More actually, there's a second <100% random. you can expect one in the first year pretty trivially. Basically, buy warlocks until you get a B4 warlock, then switch over to other mages. (especially if you're going to empower in F1...)

My scales are luck dependant, and i didn't get very lucky, and i still managed that. (Ok, the castle was entirely a windfall from events, but that was about the sum total of cash events i got). In a more average game, you'd expect higher cash from luck scales than i got. Despite nasty indies and poor events, i still ahd 11 provinces by turn 12. With more average indies/events, you could easily do 14-15+. In a lucky game you could easily have +2 castles (at least building) by the end of year 1.

Also, my strat is a research/blood rush aimed at midgame dominance, which it will achieve. Turmoil scales give it low opportunity cost for bloodhunting, since the lost income is minor at best. Growth scales let you bloodhunt aggressively. It should hit 100 slaves/trn in or before year 3.

And yes, you can aggressively hunt your capital right from the start, but this kills your income and thus your mages (and thus your research). I think we'll both agree that's a bad idea.

Oh, the other thing my strat gives you? a good manual site searcher in your pretender (probably to be started right after you hit constr 6), and a caster who can hit N5 for GoH and/or forge the chalice, to make old age far less worrying.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

.

And yes, you can aggressively hunt your capital right from the start, but this kills your income and thus your mages (and thus your research). I think we'll both agree that's a bad idea.

thats not true,and you know it.
I only have to blood hunt my cap twice.
3+3+3+3+3+3=18 slaves
+
2 times blood hunt= close,but could be enough for the first contract.
Still enough room to do things elsewhere,doesnt look too much different to your extreme strat on first sight.

I can probably do 2 contracts on turn 7,that would really be killing everything else though.

[Mardagg]

not to offend you,but i really would like to see the save game file.
It simply sounds like a lie on how you managed to actually blood hunt enough slaves for 2 boosters AND 1 blood empowerment,while still expanding,buying warlocks until you get desired paths,researching and getting the requirment for your first contract by the turn you said+the enogh income to further build them every other turn and having that decent number of provinces using that scales.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

not to offend you,but i really would like to see the save game file.
It simply sounds like a lie on how you managed to actually blood hunt enough slaves for 2 boosters AND 1 blood empowerment,while still expanding,buying warlocks until you get desired paths,researching and getting the requirment for your first contract by the turn you said+the enogh income to further build them every other turn and having that decent number of provinces using that scales.

err.. i played past turn 13 at this point, just to see what year 2 vaguely looked like. SP doesn't keep old turns around.

I suppose i could run it again, for lulz.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

err.. i played past turn 13 at this point, just to see what year 2 vaguely looked like. SP doesn't keep old turns around.

I suppose i could run it again, for lulz.

do that.
I just played your settings,but i did make some mistakes i think:
I didnt achieve what you told us here,it wasnt even close.
Ive been very unlucky though concerning magic paths for the Warlock and Events.
Solely from this,i can tell you already that i dont like it,being screwed in like 1 out of 4 games,whenever you are very unlucky.Exactly the reason i take Order with Aby.
I will keep on testing a bit during the next days.
You might as well just try out my design and compare:

B6 awake fountain,O3G3P2H3M1L1,Dom:6(something like L:0 and higher Dom ´doable to).I still play CBM 1.6.Shouldbt make a difference here,though.

I predict,you will be surprised.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, 2nd run, turn 11:
-12 RP short of Const 5
-a little tighter on blood slaves due to a really lackluster turn of hunting, and i think i got started a turn late.
-only 1 B4 warlock means it'll take me until turn 13 to start contract forging. (Need to forge one booster and empower in F).
-No windfall gold until turn 11, but it was a 3k event, so no castles actually in progress, but capable of starting a bunch.
-14 provinces
-starting assassin got unlucky and had a province with *5* commanders in it, one of which had bodyguards, so didn't even get 1 province from indie commander assassinating...

2h file and trn file available upon request. CBM 1.71. Played on map: streamlands (very popular for multiplayer right now).

And you might note the reason I'm doing this on not a FoB is because i want a pretender who is capable of doing other things (site searching, casting GoH, etc...). If i was going to go with a FoB, i'd want dom 9-10 and pursue a blood sacrifice strategy.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

2h file and trn file available upon request. CBM 1.71. Played on map: streamlands (very popular for multiplayer right now).

And you might note the reason I'm doing this on not a FoB is because i want a pretender who is capable of doing other things (site searching, casting GoH, etc...). If i was going to go with a FoB, i'd want dom 9-10 and pursue a blood sacrifice strategy.

i kindly request the turn file please

Sure,i note the reason.You did already made clear some days ago,you prefer sleeping Fountain with even better scales and/or strong blessings or rainbow pretender cutting the diversity weakness Abysia got,getting a better endgame unless i get lucky with indies.
And I generally prefer setups that try to optimize the strength of a nation.
The fire9 rush start tries to make the early game very strong,and the awake FoB strat tries to optimize Soul contract spamming.Testing it,you will quickly see that i am even able to afford building 2 contracts per turn before end of year 2+since i rush Constr as well,i do get the lanterns as well.

A sleeping /dormant Fountain for better scales/dominiion is clearly worse for Abysia concerning soul contracts,at least i came to that conclusion during test games,because you are slow at research/blood hunting at start.
Also,since i already got pretty good scales,i dont need more points.You can easily make it Dom 8 or 9 with an awake Fountain aswell btw,if you prefer.Just go P1 and L0(or P0 L1) and you got Blood saccing as a side strat going.
The biggest decision though,is : taking F0 or F1 at the start.
F1 allows for even earlier soul contract forging and you save fire gems for the lanterns.Thinking about it now ,i would probably got for slighty worse scales and F1 if i would start a new game with my setup.