OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!

[AMF]

Starhawk, I'll not comment, I'll just provide the info below...and ask you to read it with an open mind. Not my words.

(source linked at end)

Even if they don't like to say it out loud, lots of Democrats think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right! A remarkable new report, titled "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters," from PIPA, the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, suggests that rank and file Republicans are more benighted than even the most supercilious coastal elitist would imagine. (link mentioned:
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pr..._21_04.html#1)

Analyzing data from a series of nationwide polls, the report finds that a majority of Bush supporters believe things about the world that are objectively untrue, while the majority of Kerry supporters dwell in the reality-based community. For example, Bush backers largely think that the president and his policies are popular internationally. Seventy-five percent believe that Iraq was providing "substantial" aid to al-Qaida, and 63 percent say clear evidence of this has been found. That, of course, would be news even to Donald Rumsfeld, who earlier this month told the Council on Foreign Relations, "To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two."

Though its language is dispassionate, the report lays responsibility for this epidemic of ignorance at the White House's door. "So why are Bush supporters clinging so tightly to these beliefs in the face of repeated disconfirmations?" it asks. "Apparently one key reason is that they continue to hear the Bush administration confirming these beliefs."

Indeed, it says, "an overwhelming 82% [of Bush supporters] perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or a major WMD program (19%). Only 16% of Bush supporters perceive the administration as saying that Iraq had some limited activities, but not an active program (15%) or had nothing (1%). The pattern on al Qaeda is similar. Seventy-five percent of Bush supporters think the Bush administration is currently saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda (56%) or even that it was directly involved in 9/11 (19%). Further, 55% of Bush supporters say it is their impression the Bush administration is currently saying the US has found clear evidence Saddam Hussein was working closely with al Qaeda (not saying clear evidence found: 37%)."

These people aren't going to be swayed by the argument that Bush has alienated America's allies and left the country isolated in the world, because they don't believe this to be the case. "Despite a steady flow of official statements, public demonstrations, and public opinion polls showing that the US war against Iraq is quite unpopular, only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq," the study says. Bush supporters also think that world public opinion favors Bush's reelection. In a poll taken from Sept. 3-7, the study says, "57% of Bush supporters assumed that the majority of people in the world would prefer to see Bush reelected, 33% assumed that views are evenly divided and only 9% assumed that Kerry would be preferred."

In fact, a PIPA study released in early September found that a majority or plurality of people from 32 countries preferred Kerry to Bush. PIPA surveyed 34,330 people, ages 15 and above, from regions all over the world. A Pew poll released this spring similarly found that "large majorities in every country, except for the U.S., hold an unfavorable opinion of Bush."

Bush supporters are also mistaken about the president's own positions (a pattern of misapprehension that an earlier PIPA report also documented). "Majorities incorrectly assumed that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international issues -- the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%); 51% incorrectly assumed he favors US participation in the Kyoto treaty -- the principal international accord on global warming ... Only 13% of supporters are aware that he opposes labor and environmental standards in trade agreements -- 74% incorrectly believe that he favors including labor and environmental standards in agreements on trade. In all these cases, there is a recurring theme: majorities of Bush supporters favor these positions, and they infer that Bush favors them as well."

According to the report, this reality gap is something new in American life. "So why do Bush supporters show such a resistance to accepting dissonant information?" it asks. "While it is normal for people to show some resistance, the magnitude of the denial goes beyond the ordinary. Bush supporters have succeeded in suppressing awareness of the findings of a whole series of high-profile reports about prewar Iraq that have been blazoned across the headlines of newspapers and prompted extensive, high-profile and agonizing reflection. The fact that a large portion of Americans say they are unaware that the original reasons that the US took military action -- and for which Americans continue to die on a daily basis -- are not turning out to be valid, are probably not due to a simple failure to pay attention to the news."

The analysis says that the roots of this denial could lie in the trauma of 9/11 and people's desire to hold on to their image of Bush as a "capable protector." It offers no guidance, though, on how ordinary Republicans might be coaxed back to reality.

And while "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters" may be perversely satisfying to Democrats in its confirmation of blue-state prejudices, it carries a pretty disturbing question for all rational Americans: How can arguments based on fact prevail in a nation where so many people know so little?


from:http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/

[narf poit chez BOOM]

And on your comment about people not criticizing their own country, let me take a moment to say:

[sarcasm]Hey, Canada has dedicated soldiers. That way, they can be brave and bold while their equipment falls apart around them.[/sarcasm]

[Renegade 13]

Starhawk said:
YES America has it's flaws but we are also the Strongest, and I have to say most FREE nation on earth and people need to learn to appreciate that freedom and that greatness and their heritage with respect and not try to make our government sound like a damned fascist state.

Sorry, but I'll disagree with you here. I live in Canada, and I think that as of now, we are more free than the US has been for quite some time. I am more free than you ever will be. At least the police here don't have the right to detain you without just cause indefinitely, like they do in the US. At least my government doesn't invade other countries, killing untold thousands of innocent people (along with the thousands of guilty). My country believes in peacekeeping, not war-mongering. Who's in Afghanistand with their troops, keeping the peace now that the US lost interest and went on to invade Iraq? Canada does.

Give me a break Starhawk. Your attitude seems to suggest that you think America and Americans are the best thing the world has ever produced! That you always were, and always will be the most powerful, most free and best thing ever! Do you also believe in Manifest Destiny, like many Americans seem to? That it is your "destiny" to rule the entire world? That you have right to do whatever you want, simply because there is no one else in the world who has the military might available to stop you? I'm sorry, but just because you're the most powerful, doesn't mean you're always right, like you seem to believe.

I mean no disrespect to you Starhawk, I simply do not understand when people have attitudes like yours. I don't mean to insult you or anything, but I can not sit here, reading this stuff, and not comment. I hope no one is offended by this, and I hope the meaning of my words makes it through the transition from my mind into print!

[Raging Deadstar]

Renegade: It's called Patriotism simply put. Not necerssarily a bad thing but not always a good thing.

[AMF]

Will said:
Oh, and on Kerry's "flip-flopping"...

The funniest thing about the whole "flipflopping" issue (aside from the fact that it isn't true, but simply the right's propoganda machine at work) is that we're saying that Kerry is not fit to be President because....he CHANGES HIS MIND!

OH MY GOD. They're right. Surely we don't want someone who CHANGES THEIR MIND at the helm of the country.

I mean, just think of it. What if they learned new information or *gasp* intelligence that didn't fit with thier plans? They might CHANGE THEIR MIND!

Or, if they got advice from an advisor that was smarter on a subject than they were and they convinced them that they might be wrong? they might CHANGE THEIR MIND!

Holy cow. Think of the possibilities. It would be devastating to have a president that listened to advice and then made up a decision, and was willing to CHANGE THEIR MIND if the country needed it, or if it made sense. Or if, god forbid, they might have been wrong.

I mean, just think, what if Kerry were president, and we got attacked by Al Qaeda and he knew, just knew, that Iran was behind it and so he started to prepare for an invasion but then one of his advisers or the CIA came to him and said, "Mr President all our intelligence indicates that it isn't Iran behind the attack, instead it's North Korea". What if, under that situation, our President CHANGED HIS MIND?

Where would the US be then?

In a hell of a lot better place than now, I can tell you that.

Remember that Cuban Missile Crisis thingy? Where we went eyeball to eyeball with the Russkies and the whole world watched while we almsot blew it up? Well, JFK was a pretty bright guy...because he listened to his advisors on possible options to deal with the Missiles in Cuba...and he CHANGED HIS MIND and instead of airstrikes he blockaded.

WE know now, given that Russian archives have all been released to the public after the wall fell down, that if he had ordered airstrikes, odds are very good that there would have been a nuclear war.

Thank god he CHANGED HIS MIND.

WE need a President that is not so lugheaded and stubborn that he can't CHANGE HIS MIND.

Get it?

Or, is it possible that you can't CHANGE YOUR MIND?

[Gandalf Parker]

Starhawk said:
Ever hear of a positive change instead of jumping right into the flag burning government bashing militant?

You might want to be aware of who you are talking about if you are including me. Although there should NOT be such a thing as a list of qualifications which give the right to comment, if there WERE such a list then many of us would qualify quite heavily. Hmmmm lets see... US citizen, vietnam vet, military retired, tax payer, functional family man, home owner. Thats quite a list of things I can put me on the "politicians listen to me" list. About the only thing I could add to it that I dont have at the moment is that Im no longer a "small business owner" or "CEO of a large corporation". Thats just me. I thought Id clarify it abit.

To Gandalf yeah we do have territories like I said though it seems they cost us money and give us little in return when I say province I mean taxed (as in we get more mone from them then we spend on them) territory that has the choice of either paying or getting creamed by an invasion force ala British Empire .

Again its not the facts, its the way they are worded and looked at by others than the person who keeps saying them louder and louder. And civil disorders in those territories has caused us to send in troops (same as the british empire).

The scarey part is that most of those were taken in war. They were taken to move out the government ruling them, we stayed in control in order to "lead them to a proper government", (sound familiar?) and now decades later they still arent free nations or states. Im sure its all in their best interest but then most such actions by countries usually are as far as the nation doing it says.

[Fyron]

Renegade 13 said:
Sorry, but I'll disagree with you here. I live in Canada, and I think that as of now, we are more free than the US has been for quite some time. I am more free than you ever will be. At least the police here don't have the right to detain you without just cause indefinitely, like they do in the US.

Minor nit-pick... while the US military can apparently detain foreigners indefinitely, the police could certainly not do this to a US citizen...

[Renegade 13]

Raging Deadstar said:
Renegade: It's called Patriotism simply put. Not necerssarily a bad thing but not always a good thing.

Very true, but rabid patriotism is definitely not good, not when it blinds the person to all other viewpoints.

[Gandalf Parker]

Imperator Fyron said:

Minor nit-pick... while the US military can apparently detain foreigners indefinitely, the police could certainly not do this to a US citizen...

Not indefinately. There is a very specific time limit before they must be charged with something and see a judge. One of the very good parts of the original constitution. Of course there were 1700+ arrested during the republican convention and held for 60 hours.

[AMF]

Starhawk said:

Starhawk said:
YES America has it's flaws but we are also the Strongest, and I have to say most FREE nation on earth

[/quote]

Is it?

In terms of Economic freedom, it ranks sixth, behind Hong Kong, Signapore, New Zealand, Switzerland, and the UK (see: http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pd012299g.html)

But I don't think that's what he means. (After all, Signapore is a pretty facistic place in some ways, although, clearly, like Mussolini, the government keeps the train running on time)

So, what about other freedoms?

In terms of press/journalistic freedom (based on things like "attacks on journalists (such as murders, imprisonment, physical assaults and threats) and on the media (censorship, confiscation, searches and pressure).[and]... the degree of impunity enjoyed by those responsible for such violations...), the US is ranked as: 17th (Finland is first, France 11, Canada 5) (see: http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=4118)

SO, how about political freedoms? It's hard to get a "top ten" for this, since most categorize rather than rank dsicreteley. Given that, Freedom House ranks the US in it's highest categrory (for both Political Rights and Civil Liberties) but details some disturbing trends as well
(http://www.freedomhouse.org/research...atings/usa.htm)

The US shares this highest ranking with a number of other countries, including Uruguay, Slovenia, Norway, France, Canada, and a whole lot of others.

So, is the US the "most free" in the world? Well, it shares the highest Category, so you could make a case either way, really.