Standard special ability, totally pointless?

[Meglobob]

Cainehill said:

Yep. I also love the way his characters (with a _very_ few exceptions like Joffrey & the Mummers) aren't black or white - some of my favorites are nice complex shadings of gray, such as the Hound and Tyrion.

Yes I am a big fan Robert Jordan and especially George R. R. Martin, his characters r fantastic. Tyrion Lannister is my favourite character, I also like Stannis Baratheon. Cannot get over how he cruely eliminated House Stark in such a brutal fashion, good to see an author willing to create such excellent characters then kill them off in such an evil fashion.

[FrankTrollman]

Any way, her base attack and defence, her skills at attacking and defending, are both 15. The Seraph's "skills" are only at 14 and 14. I didn't count Fire in, because it's magic, and distinct from martial skills even though it does help in there, too.

That's crap. The fact that training in Fire Magic also gives you attack skill doesn't change the fact that you trained and your skills improved. You know, that thing that heroes do? Where they train? Yeah, the Seraph did that too.

He just happens to be an 18/14 instead of a 15/15 - to say that Hildegard has better stats is insane. She's +1 to hit the Seraph, the Seraph is +3 to hit her. The Seraph is better.

And it has 5 times her hit points, and amazing magical powers, and a host of special abilities, and blah blah blah. Hildegard isn't even comparable in any way on any level with the Seraph. It rocks her so hard that it doesn't even notice running her over on the way to the 7-11.

Hildegard isn't impressive. She should be. But she really isn't. And claiming that she is better in any way to the Seraph is just blowing smoke.

-Frank

[Zebion]

It'd be nice if some heros had some special abilities that made them unique from a normal unit if they are thug chassis the same as the normal unit,or came with special items

EA ulm's hero comes with a blade of sharpness,why can't the MA heros come with something nice,afterall they live in a forge world and they're also doing special things. They would probably pick something to help them survive

[Teraswaerto]

In a highly magical world like that of Dominions heroes would have some kind of magic power usually. Most will be mages, some will have unhuman blood in them, etc.

Human heroes should not have superhuman HP across the board, and not all heroes should be on the level of Etimmu, but there's no real reason that human nations must have strictly human heroes. Perhaps, for example, there could be an Ulmish hero with a titan for a grandaddy, gifted with superhuman size and strenght. All Ulmish heroes shouldn't be like that though.

[Endoperez]

FrankTrollman said:
That's crap. The fact that training in Fire Magic also gives you attack skill doesn't change the fact that you trained and your skills improved. You know, that thing that heroes do? Where they train? Yeah, the Seraph did that too.

He just happens to be an 18/14 instead of a 15/15 - to say that Hildegard has better stats is insane. She's +1 to hit the Seraph, the Seraph is +3 to hit her. The Seraph is better.

And it has 5 times her hit points, and amazing magical powers, and a host of special abilities, and blah blah blah. Hildegard isn't even comparable in any way on any level with the Seraph. It rocks her so hard that it doesn't even notice running her over on the way to the 7-11.

Hildegard isn't impressive. She should be. But she really isn't. And claiming that she is better in any way to the Seraph is just blowing smoke.

Must be differing views again. For me, base Attack and base Defence are more important than attack/defence after bonuses from mounted, equipment etc. The Seraph would actually be at a malus to hit Hildegard, because she's also mounted (+3 defence). I did overstate her attack and defence a bit, though, because the Seraph also has base skills at level 15. I checked Seraph's stats from the screenshot, and failed to noticed the malus from Fist.

I'm not comparing how likely Hildegard is to score a hit against a Seraph. I'm comparing their skills. Seraph just happens to be the summon with the best attack and defence I came upon when going through the manual. I also disregarded magic boosts like intrinsic Fire/Water boosts, Quickness, equipment, bless, weapon/armor adjustments or miscellanous items different units happen to use. I also disregarded things like Seraph's Fire Shield and resistances.

Hildegard's attack and defence of 15 are extreme, but unfortunately not enough. Her low hitpoints mean that she'll still die against a lucky ranged unit, or against an AoE spell - she's just a human. Humans, even very good humans, won't matter much in Dominions. I KNOW that Hildegard would lose when fighting against a blind, feeble-minded, unconscious, unblessed Seraph. I'm not claiming that she could fight anything like the Seraph. I'm no even saying that if one hit is needed, she could deal it just as well as the seraph, because the Seraph's fire magic helps her there. I still think she's as skilled a combatant as the best of the angels of Dominions. Not effective, skilled.

[Endoperez]

Teraswaerto said:
In a highly magical world like that of Dominions heroes would have some kind of magic power usually. Most will be mages, some will have unhuman blood in them, etc.

Human heroes should not have superhuman HP across the board, and not all heroes should be on the level of Etimmu, but there's no real reason that human nations must have strictly human heroes. Perhaps, for example, there could be an Ulmish hero with a titan for a grandaddy, gifted with superhuman size and strenght. All Ulmish heroes shouldn't be like that though.

EA (perhaps MA) Arcoscephale, Pathos the Son of Titans, size 2, Awe, extreme stats compared to a human but still not a thug.

Sorry for posting so many posts, especially so many LONG posts in this thread. It seems I'm having troubles communicating my appreciation of the fluff parts of the game in thread focused on whether or not the mechanics work as some would prefer.

[alexti]

About national heroes. National mages vs Hunter of Heroes:
Moritasgus - RIP - died of natural causes.
Headless - RIP - froze to death (self-inflicted).

In some nations - everybody is hero

[mivayan]

Cainehill said:

Perhaps I've read different mythology, folktales, and heroic fantasy than you - Vainamoinen (spelling), Cu Culain, Robin Hood / William Tell, Lancelot, Roland, even Falstaff, or even Rasputin. Not to mention Elric, Conan, and all the heroes from Zelazny, George R R Martin, Robert Jordan, etc, etc.

Considered what a _human_ mage can accomplish in the game, superhuman abilities in the heroes don't seem that outlandish. Especially when you consider the heroic abilities even "normal" recruitable human commanders can get, and Ulm's heroes don't seem that unreasonable. They're _unique_ where Bane Lords are spawned from a limitless stock of undead

Unique but human. Heroes from books or movies could deserve to have +5 att or def or precision perhaps. But the reason main characters survive in books is the same reason James Bond does... the 12 goons shooting machine guns at him just happen to miss through sheer luck. Because otherwise it'd be a sucky story. I'm happy that dominions doesn't have that. A human against many humans... will die.

[Twan]

A dominion heroe with 30hp against many humans will die too. The hp just represent his extra faculty to survive (but in dominions the heroe will need not only these 30 hp but also regeneration or recuperation to be like James Bond and avoid to have afflictions each time he survives).

The debate here is a very old dead horse coming from RPGs, the original concept of hit points (from D&D) versus the trying-to-be-realist-rpg concept of hp (from chaosium games etc). Note that really realist games never use hp, and that games wanting James Bond like heroes in a game without increased hit points use other systems like heroic points or survival points which like D&D hit points are points representing the ability to avoid dammage.

I think giving 20-30hp to an human heroe is a correct middle ground, not going too far into the D&D concept (in which an heroic human could have more than a titan), but not making the non mage heroes as ordinary/worthless as they are.

[mivayan]

alexti said:
About national heroes. National mages vs Hunter of Heroes:

The Maverni E2S2?2 Druids beat up the hunter? That's pretty cool. Scripted to do what, exactly?