OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING

[Baron Munchausen]

Comparisons of Middle-earth geography and history to historical earth are fascinating.

Mountain encircled Mordor actually resembles Persia (Iran) if you look at a relief map. And Tolkien himself compared Gondor to 'Byzantium' -- the Byzantine Empire which had a long history of constant strife with Persia, and finally fell to the Ottoman Turks. Compare the Minas Ithil / Ostgiliath / Minas Anor complex to Constantinople on both sides of the straits of Bosporus. The Bosporus straits aren't much wider than a river, after all. And when Mohammed II attacked Constantinople for the final time he had a new-fangled weapon, the cannon, which he used to batter holes in the walls. Compare to the bLasting of the Rammas Echor with (apparently) gunpowder by the attacking army of Mordor. The battle for Minas Tirith might be considered a replay of the fall of Constantinople.

But there are more 'patterns' to be matched. The shape of the lands protected behind the Anduin might be compared to Britain itself, with Minas Tirith down in the southeast corner being 'London' and Anduin being the English Channel. Then the invading army or Mordor looks like the forces of William the Conqueror. Eomer borrows from Talifer and tosses his sword in the air (and catches it!) while singing when he realizes that the black ships are full of good guys. So the battle for Minas Tirith also borrows from the Battle of Hastings. (And it says somewhere in Tolkien's 'official' biography that he resented the 1066 Conquest very personally, so you can see a sort of 'wish fulfillment' in his replay turning out differently.)

There are more miscellaneous connections. If Rivendell is at approximately the same lattitude as Oxford, as Tolkien says, then 'Mirkwood' is a pretty good fit for the Black Forest in Germany. And Tolkien himself refers to Venice as 'Pelargir' in the Letters, both are coastal cities with canals. There are too many connections to say that any one fit works well enough to be an 'allegory' or deliberate depiction. He just borrowed extensively from real history to build his imaginary history, though he also expresses regret somewhere or other that he had established the geography of Middle-earth too well to make it fit to Europe when he realized that would have been a good idea.

[ January 08, 2004, 21:40: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by Loser:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Sauron, Gandalph and Sauruman are all Maiar.

Wasn't the Balrog, as well?

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Yes, as is Radagast, who does not appear in the movies.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Also, you are forgetting that the Maiar are also demi-gods, though lesser demi-gods. Sauron, Gandalph and Sauruman are all Maiar.

i think 'angels' would be a better fit. and he still would have been conquered Last, so that point stands.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Yes, as is Radagast, who does not appear in the movies.

Actually... he does sort of appear indirectly, in the form of that moth that always precedes the eagles... he did take that form to reach Gandalph in the books, though he became himself again to talk with him. But, he should have been an actual character, to show that there are more than just the 2 wizards Gandalph and Sauruman.

And the other two unnamed members of the Istari, the wizards council of which Sauruman was the head, were also Maiar. I think the Dragons were started from corrupted Maiar as well, though I am not certain on that one... Shelob was one of the few remaining offspring of Ungoliant, a huge spider-demon thingie that came out of the Void surrounding the world (as did a lot of other "monsters").

[ January 08, 2004, 20:17: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:

quote:

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Also, you are forgetting that the Maiar are also demi-gods, though lesser demi-gods. Sauron, Gandalph and Sauruman are all Maiar.

i think 'angels' would be a better fit. and he still would have been conquered Last, so that point stands.

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But he was not powerful, just not subject to the influence of the ring. He has no power to resist an army of orcs (or of men even).

Actually, the Valar are more like the "angels," with the Maiar being a group of "lesser angels," as Iluvatar, the guy over everything, is the "God" in Middle Earth, though he is never worshipped by anyone. Keep in mind that angels are demi-gods.

[ January 08, 2004, 20:18: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

But he was not powerful, just not subject to the influence of the ring. He has no power to resist an army of orcs (or of men even).

then why would he be conquered Last?

[Puke]

I always had the impression that Bombadil was incredibly powerfull. I thought that Gandalf had said the ring would have been safe if left with him, and that his woods would not fall, but that it wouldnt be right to ask that of him, and it wouldnt help the rest of the world.

I also seem to remember him saying that Bombadil could probably come out and lay down some whoop-***, but it just wouldnt be cool to ask.

[Fyron]

Oh... hmm... too bad Tolkien never said just who the hell Bombadil is...

[gravey101]

didn't he say that he was also just as likely to give the ring away as anything ?

[gravey101]

http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html