OT: Free speech?

[sachmo]

Originally posted by orm:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sachmo:
The problem is in what position you take on the subject. If you believe that it was necessary to save more lives, then it becomes acceptable. I have a feeling that if there were chemical bombs and/or nuclear weapons going off in America, there would have been far less outcry about the prisoner abuse.

It is never acceptable to fall back to such kind of barbarism. Not for people who say they defend "freedom", "peace" and "human rights". Acceptance for such practics for enemies leads in most cases to use same practics on own population few years later.

---

You and I may believe that, but if you had lived through those time, or you were a soldier waiting to invade Japan, you might have a different story. I guess when you come down to it, what is the price you are willing to make others PAY for your rights? Would you firebomb a city to kill your greatest enemy, or would you avoid it because it is not in your character? When I think about losing my family, lots of moral questions get answered pretty quickly.


Clarification: I am not attempting to justify any of the current issues in Iraq nor draw a comparision between the Iraqi threat and the Nazi threat. My purpose is to try and spark conversation on how "atrocities" can be viewed in a different light by some.

[ May 19, 2004, 14:55: Message edited by: sachmo ]

[Grauzone]

I agree your opinion about human nature. To survive should be always the highest priority. But in the actual politics USA fights not for survival.

Atrocities done in the past are good lessons to learn better ways to live together. They shows us many possibilities to solve actual problems, and ways wouldn't work. My point is that i see too much decisions done by potitians today, they could do better if they take a little time to see in our past.

Germany was one of few coutries where "bombing to democracy" ever functions. The couse wos not the total destruction of this country, it was the "Marchall Plan" helps the germans to build up their state.

Reduction of poverty reduces terror, not bombs. I now no "smart-anti-terrorist-bomb". Bombs hit almost the false peole in such asymetric combat.

All that money wasted in Iraq could be effectively used on other spots.

[dogscoff]

To the german guy who says that many germans are loaded with guilt over the actions of their predecessors:

You are right, the current generation should not feel guilty of the "sins of the father", and very few people in the world now judge modern germany by it's actions 60 years ago. Most people recognise modern Germany as a peace-loving nation.
The younger generation shouldn't feel guity. Each individual should be judged on their own actions.

However it's interesting that while nobody dreams of judging modern Germany by their actions in the war, many people want us to judge modern USA by *their" actions in the war. How many times have I heard "If it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking german by now"?

To whoever pointed out that neither Hitler nor Stalin came from their own countires: Keep your eye on Schwarzenegger.

And to all those people trying to justify the lowering of human rights: You can't. As soon as you put anything at all- even your own survival (and I we can argue later about just how threatened the survival of the USA is/ was) then you can no longer proclaim yourself to be any better than hitler/ stalin/ saddam hussein/ Darth Vadrer/ insert your bad guy of choice here. Remember that Al-Qaeda also think that they are fighting to protect the survival of their way of life. Hitler used similar propaganda to justify the kind of atrocities we have all been condemning here.

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
However it's interesting that while nobody dreams of judging modern Germany by their actions in the war, many people want us to judge modern USA by *their" actions in the war. How many times have I heard "If it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking german by now"?

If you mean me: I do not try to judge USA for their wars of the past. I'm not agree with the actual politic of USA goverment. They make avoidable failures now.

[sachmo]

Originally posted by dogscoff:


And to all those people trying to justify the lowering of human rights: You can't. As soon as you put anything at all- even your own survival (and I we can argue later about just how threatened the survival of the USA is/ was) then you can no longer proclaim yourself to be any better than hitler/ stalin/ saddam hussein/ Darth Vadrer/ insert your bad guy of choice here. Remember that Al-Qaeda also think that they are fighting to protect the survival of their way of life. Hitler used similar propaganda to justify the kind of atrocities we have all been condemning here.

So it would be better to be dead with a clear conscience than to be alive having done horrible things to defend yourself?

I think that each situation must be looked at independently.

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by sachmo:
So it would be better to be dead with a clear conscience than to be alive having done horrible things to defend yourself?

I think that each situation must be looked at independently.

I think as you do.

[Atrocities]

For me, all I want is to know that my family is safe, that the world is at peace, terrorism is no longer the tool of trade for those who want to get their own way, and food and gas aplenty.

I want enough money to live comfortably, and feel safe when I travel abroad and live without the fear that the FBI or other will come crashing into my home because of some computer glitch that identified me as a threat.

To walk through an airport and get on a plane without sweating the security checks, or being blown up in flight or flown into a building by crazy mad men.

I would love to live in a world where we all just focused upon making each others lives better, expanding our understanding of the planet and the universe while working toward the common goal of exploring the unknown abyss of space.

A planet where religion and people respected each other enought to never fight again over petty doctrains of idology and fear.

A planet where I am free to express my opinion, own a gun, drive a car, eat pizza, poop in the woods, fish, hunt, watch tv, play video games, take picutes, and travel from state to state without the fear of someone attempting to take those things away from me.

Image what a world like that would be like. No wars, no famons, no violence, just one big happy planet working toward the common goal of bettering each others lives while expanding our own.

But we don't live in that world, ours is filled with power hungry mad men, corprate jugernoughts out to deforest the planet and enslave the population, religious zeolots who think that God want them to kill inocent children by blowing up school busses and train stations. That the road to salvation lays through atrocities against humanity and that toppling a building full of people is how to earn your passage into heaven.

I hate the violence that is so rampant throught the world where one must kill in order to survive or to feed ones family. Have we not out grown this manality of beat they neighbor into oblivion over petty crap?

If Jesus walked the earth today he would most likely not be a yuppie driving a Hummer while talking on his cell phone to his theorpist, he would be, I think, a poor man working his life away trying to make thing better for those around him. Hey wait a minute; isn't that what most of us are doing? I am a firm believer that all of the planets hardships are caused by only a small percent of the people who live on it. The rest of us just want to live and let live.

War is bad, very bad, and I pray that the one we are in now ends soon.

[dogscoff]

So it would be better to be dead with a clear conscience than to be alive having done horrible things to defend yourself?

Within limits, yes. However it is perfectly possible for a nation to defend itself against an attack without resorting to the kind of methods outlawed by the geneva convention.

If you mean me:

I didn't mean you.

[primitive]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
.
.
To whoever pointed out that neither Hitler nor Stalin came from their own countires: Keep your eye on Schwarzenegger.
.

[mottlee]

Originally posted by orm:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Randallw:
Stalin murdered many more of his own people* than Hitler yet Hitler is considered worse... Truely History is written by the victor.

*strangely enough neither Stalin or Hitler was actually from the country he ran.

I think you are right. It is the precicion and efficiency that makes germans to the worst criminals in this time (and the fact that they loose the conflict). But i don't understand why and how my generation of german adults is responsible for this crime. To criticise Israelian politics brings you automaticaly near to the position of Antisemitism, even though many of israelian doings are not so far from what Stalin has do with ethnical minorities in russia. And why do the USA protect this behaviour?

---

I for one do not "Blame" Germany or the German people for what a few did, the German army was like ours, protecting their home (in the end) would we all not do that? for a people to take the "Blame" for someone else is wrong,look what we Americans have done to the native Americans here!