Blood?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
So realistically you have to research con4 first. Build dousing rods with your early blood, empower someone to water3 if your pretender doesn't have it, and summon the Ice Devil and then equip the Ice Devils.

What level of construction does the water bracelet require? That and two blood boosting items is what is required for the water mages to summon ice devils.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:

I never use SDR's in Dom2.

I know and I do mean to give it a try MM and all. However its sort of like basing a race design around the Blood of human guys with a two handed weapon and shield - its probably not going to be around long and IMO shouldn't be. Going on what Illwinter said they intended people to blood hunt with blood mages. Since you have done such a good job pointing out that this is not how its turned out I'm assumming they will fix this and so, I hope, building a blood economy around blood mages with SDR's will be of more long term learning value.

I see little point to Jade Knives unless I'm having extreme dominion scale issues, which has rarely been the case.

I like them heaps. Even with dom6 they put me at the top of the dominion curve and as my SP games are decided by dominon, and it takes along time to undermine well established dominion, I like them.

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
What level of construction does the water bracelet require?

There is a water3 booster at con4 and a water2 booster at con6. Empowerment is ok for me - its just mean searching with a water mage early and I like to start my searching programme early.

Anyway must stop reading Posts and crank the Fountain of Blood.

I'm really enjoying making progress with Mictlan.

Cheers

Keir

[Bowlingballhead]

As a GREAT fan of blood magic, I promise you that none of the 'boss' demons are so tremendously powerful in combat. They're more useful for leading other demons around, or because they can summon for free.

Demon knights, on the other hand, darned near rule the battlefield. Hard to dispel, stats equivilant to practically anything that can be bought, fear to disperse most of the enemies that can beat them... very, very fine units. And can they conquer independents? Mow them down like WHEAT. Not perfect, of course, nothing is.

How you run blood magic depends a lot on what race you are. I find Mictlan tough, personally. Their troops are so feeble, it's hard to make those early conquests so vital to getting your blood economy going. And if you pick a Mictlan god (haven't tried Mictlan with a regular god, don't know if it's consistent to them) you have to funnel a huge number of blood slaves into maintaining even minimal dominion.

One thing baffles me. I was under the impression it was patrolling and not the blood hunt itself that lowered population. Yet when I drop tax rates down to zero in a hunted province so I don't have to bother with patrollers, I still lose population! Anybody understand that? I was under the impression lowering taxes would cause growth.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by General Tacticus:
Yes, it looks like it can be done, on paper. Still, that 20% of your income will be missed elsewhere : for building additional fortress, province defense, even plain old armies... You also need more priest on sacrifice duties. Not to mention the fact that your good research pretender has cost you a lot of points, so your scales are not that good.

I haven't tried ice devils, so I cannot say how good they are, but would you say 1 Ice devil every two turns is worth investing 20% of your income for the crucial 20 first turns ?

I think the investment cost is actually less, with more of it coming towards the end and less during expansion. In particular scouts are cheap and effective blood hunters.

Well equipped Ice Devils were quite powerfull in Dom 1, and the only thing I've seen significantly change in Dom 2 is Paralyze. With a Wraith Sword and Regeneration Ring they wade through conventional armies. Quickness plus their cold bonus gives them high enough stats to deal with other tough combatants.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
I know and I do mean to give it a try MM and all. However its sort of like basing a race design around the Blood of human guys with a two handed weapon and shield - its probably not going to be around long and IMO shouldn't be. Going on what Illwinter said they intended people to blood hunt with blood mages. Since you have done such a good job pointing out that this is not how its turned out I'm assumming they will fix this and so, I hope, building a blood economy around blood mages with SDR's will be of more long term learning value.

This may be the crux of our disagreement. If scouts weren't so good at hunting summoning Ice Devils would be a much bigger investment.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
As a GREAT fan of blood magic, I promise you that none of the 'boss' demons are so tremendously powerful in combat. They're more useful for leading other demons around, or because they can summon for free.

Are you seriously suggesting that Super Combatants are ineffective?! I have seen and done otherwise, and from what I've read my exerience is common.

I have gotten an Ice Devil with a Wraith Sword and Boots of Flight by turn 16. Then turn 17 Alteration 2.

It is more than possible with some nations; and it isn't that disruptive to your economy as you need your economy to build the slaves and research needed.

The primary issue is you need a nation that is naturally strong and has significant surviviability in their normal units.

They key is not to overexpand. Though personally I don't like putting all my eggs into one type of basket Which is what you are doing, however that Ice Devil crippled 1 opponent and allowed me to be much larger and stronger than any of the other players by turn 25.

[Keir Maxwell]

Just knocked off an Ice Devil by turn 20 doing it via construction. Got Nycator who can't take weapons and is extremely sensitive to temperature - not good for Mictlan.

Did it affect my development? Hugely. I got hammered - but I got an Ice Devil.

Skipping construction I could go significantly quicker but to what affect? Not an efficient option for Mictlan with their heat dominion - more a Caelum/Jotun thing with their cold Dominion. Ice Devils are not *that* good unless you are a cold nation. Geting them t.8-9 with Caelum in dom1 was freak show material - Caelum was vastly more powerful played conventionally.

I think for Mictlan if you want to go blood early its as Alex suggested - Contracts utilsing your con research and then I'd follow up with a bit of conj, then alt6 for Mass Protection. I hate watching my guys get trashed by real troops. Going con2 then alt6 is what I'll try next and then see how the blood is looking.

One thing I would say - Mictlan can sure get alot of slaves! The Mictlan Priest is pretty amazing as a blood searcher with an SDR and with magic3 the research flies. I'm not so sure SDR's are redundant. At least not for Mictlan with their ultra cheap blood mage.

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
This may be the crux of our disagreement. If scouts weren't so good at hunting summoning Ice Devils would be a much bigger investment.

So from that may I take it that you agree that early blood could do with a boost (perhaps more multi-summons) when Illwinter fix the glich making scouts good blood hunters?

Cheers

Keir