National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics

[Jasper]

To be blunt, if you find national mages and troops useless in the late game, than you need to improve your tactics.

They are certainly less usefull than early on, and the later you get the more magic dominates -- but even so mundane troops and mages have a substantial impact -- IMHO if you neglect them you are much more likely to lose.

If on the other hand you and your friends would just like mundane troops to be more usefull and prevalent -- just change the settings!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Tris:
Hmmm - one way would be to have a spell which locked the caster and its target into Stasis, for as long as the spell was maintained.

This spell already exists. It paralyzes anything unresistably in combat, and is called "PETRIFY". No form of immunity or MR can protect against this: It always paralyzes at worst, and costs no gems: You can just keep casting it ad infinitum.

[Kel]

To be fair, at 5E, Petrify is not particularly easy to cast for most nations.

- Kel

[Vynd]

I agree with the sentiment that SCs should not be the be all and end all of this game. I think that one aspect of a good strategy game is that there are multiple ways to win, and if the only strategy for winning Dominions II is with SCs then it's not meeting that standard.

But by that same token, I don't think it is right to argue that things should be changed such that it becomes impossible to follow a SC strategy, and that everyone should have to rely on national troops. That is just swapping SCs for national troops at the top of the heap. The best thing for the game, in my opnion, is a rough balance in which it is possible to pursue either of these (or some entirely different) strategy, and have a chance to win.

It does seem like things are out of balance, as I've defined it, and that SCs are the best thing going right now. Perhaps it would help if there were more ways to boost the strength of national troops. As others have pointed out, these never really get any better than they were at the start of the game. Well maybe if there were more spells that buffed up Groups of conventional units, they'd be more attractive. There could even be magic items that a commander could use to aid his men in battle, ala Standards.

Another idea would be to have settings that one could adjust during God creation that would result in better national troops, but at a price that would prevent you from getting a powerful SC Pretender at the same time. Like, say, a 250 point national theme (is that what they're called, I forget...) that would give your nation a set of national troops that are much more powerful than the norm.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Kel:
To be fair, at 5E, Petrify is not particularly easy to cast for most nations.

There are other, easier options. Many nations have access to astral-2 mages (even astral-1 will do with a Banner of the NS) who can cast Stellar Cascades, and if you bring enough of them (5 will usually do), the offending SC won't even have the time to cast his/her buffs. If it's a VQ, even better - whoever can cast Stellar Cascades can finish her off with Solar Rays.

And that's just an example.

[Endoperez]

Maybe something on the line with Niefel Giants? If you want a nation with strong mundane troops, take Jotunheim and if the "basic" Jotuns are not enough for you take Niefelheim. It doesn't even cost 250 design points, and you get 120 points from the cold scale even though the Last one hits your income a little.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
If it's a VQ, even better - whoever can cast Stellar Cascades can finish her off with Solar Rays.

I do find that the AI would often rather cast cast paralyze with a low probability of success than solar rays, stellar cascades, and star fires.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Vynd:
But by that same token, I don't think it is right to argue that things should be changed such that it becomes impossible to follow a SC strategy, and that everyone should have to rely on national troops. That is just swapping SCs for national troops at the top of the heap. The best thing for the game, in my opnion, is a rough balance in which it is possible to pursue either of these (or some entirely different) strategy, and have a chance to win.

Quite true. I don't think that eliminating SCs and powerful magic from the game is feasible - too many players love the high magics, and frankly - life as a bog mummy rocks.



Another idea would be to have settings that one could adjust during God creation that would result in better national troops, but at a price that would prevent you from getting a powerful SC Pretender at the same time. Like, say, a 250 point national theme (is that what they're called, I forget...) that would give your nation a set of national troops that are much more powerful than the norm.

Could always crib an idea from MoM - allow mithril / adamantium mines to be located at the capitol. Troops recruited there would have magic weapons and superior armor.

Or add some new buildings, that provide upgrades to the troops. A minor increase to attack Ratings; enchanting the weapons / bows so they can affect etherealness... Or that increase morale, or cause the troops to be created with 1 experience star already.

Without something ... Norfleet mentions Petrify. Great idea - but against flying SCs in particular, how do you get one of your _very_ rare E5 mages in combat? Right now, flying SCs (such as VQs and Ice Devils) with a full set of gear are essentially immune to normal armies. I've watched one Ice Devil destroy 100+ troop armies of Marignon, complete with paladins, High Inquisitors and Grand Masters. Then it wings to another province, and repeats the process.

Pretty soon the armies are gone, and can't quickly (or cheaply) be rebuilt.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Without something ... Norfleet mentions Petrify. Great idea - but against flying SCs in particular, how do you get one of your _very_ rare E5 mages in combat?

It's easy for Vanheim, and doable for Arcoscephale and Machaka, but most other nations will have many problems. Ulm can manage it if they've developed a good blood economy for earth blood stones. All you need is an earth 3 mage who is wearing earth boots, and then casts summon earthpower. The flying SC is going to spend at least one turn casting buffs, so you have time to petrify it before it attacks you. If there are lots of troops around as well, then you will have more trouble targeting the SC.

I've watched one Ice Devil destroy 100+ troop armies of Marignon, complete with paladins, High Inquisitors and Grand Masters.

I think the problem in that case must have been that the Ice Devil was immune to fire damage. Otherwise the 18+ armor negating fire damage from incinerate would have killed it fairly effectively. It would have also helped greatly if one of the grand masters had cast light of the northern star, or if someone was carrying a banner of the northern star. This would have enabled all the grand masters to cast astral fires on the ice devil.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
If it's a VQ, even better - whoever can cast Stellar Cascades can finish her off with Solar Rays.

I do find that the AI would often rather cast cast paralyze with a low probability of success than solar rays, stellar cascades, and star fires.

---

That may be true, but 5 Volvur - or similar mages - scripted (Stellar Cascades)x2 (Solar Rays)x3 will take care of any VQ without worrying about this issue. For non-undead SCs, once they're at 200 fatigue, ordinary steel is usually adequate.