Wu-shan, Holmgard and Padmassa

[DrPraetorious]

Well, it does make a significant difference, actually.

The Flail (which is what most people will use) is best for cutting down light infantry-with-shields, which abound in the early era. So for early conquest, you'd only use these. I've considered adding a "horseman's flail" (or "light flail") which has a smaller damage bonus and less reach, since it's supposed to be a one-handed weapon - the current 1H flail has the same stats as a 2H flail, but I think it's a legacy or giant weapon.

The Cudgel sounds like an odd weapon to give to cavalry. However, it's +3 DEF (vs the Flail) and +2 DEF (vs the Axe) which really confers a lot of survivability. Right now this is a "stick", was a "mace". I'm considering adding a "cudgel" - both for the name and to give another +1 DEF (so a one-handed quarterstaff.) I don't want to give them swords - good guys use swords.

Finally, the axe is what cataphracts historically used to cut through armor (hammers came later). Against armored foes or giants, that's what you want. This unit I'm a little skeptical of, I admit - it's not like you're going to survive multiple rounds of combat against giants, and your lance ought to deal with the bulk of an enemy's heavy infantry. If I tone down the 1H flail a bit this will become more attractive.

[Sombre]

No curvy scimitar/tulwar type swords?

I still think the difference in those weapons isn't going to matter much given that they all have lances and everything else is equal, although it depends how much armour your cavalry has. Then again ulmish infantry got lots of different equipment in MA and LA. If you're set on differentiating them, shield patterns are the way to do it.

[DrPraetorious]

Sure, orange shield, green shield, black shield? I can actually manage this in gimp - just use fill-selection and set the color opacity low.

I suppose I could add a Tulwar. They could have a "Poisoned Tulwar", essentially a +2 Def shortsword that poisons people. Is that too good?

[Sombre]

Looks fine to me. Which unit are you going to be using these for then? I think you said False Knights weren't going to ride barded aurochs.

Anyway, here are the auroch mount graphics I have that would probably be useful to you. I forgot to make the attack sprite for the non-barded auroch before creating the barding, which was a fairly big blunder. Anyway, maybe you can have a go at making one. The white barded auroch only has an attack animation because I was just messing about seeing how hard it was to do white flesh/fur. It looks ok, should be fairly easy to apply to the normal sprite.

I'm going back to working on Arga Dis and the other mods I've released for the moment, but hopefully I'll be able to help again shortly down the line.

[HoneyBadger]

DrPraetorious, here are some suggestions for good melee-weapons for calvalry:

The shamshir-this is the Arabian horse-sabre that's often called-or confused with-a scimitar because of the relatively similar names and the fact that they're both unusual/specialized swords that come from the east of Europe (the Arabians got scimitars from the Mongols). The shamshir is a very long, extended saber, either very curved or often with a crook in the middle, which gives it a large area, or "sweet spot", when slashing downward, in which strikes will do the maximum damage-which makes it ideal for cutting down lighter-armored infantry.

Tulwar (or "Talwar", sometimes with an L on the end). This is an Indian sword that is typified by having a blade that is straight for half it's length and then broadening out and curving back into a heavy slashing weapon. Typically shorter than a Shamshir, it's still very effective for close-quarters fighting from horseback, because of the heavy chopping end. This is similar in design to the Turkish "Kilij". The Turks also used swords very similar in design to the Shamshir. These weapons are much more redolent of the typical "scimitar", but usually lack the deep curve and wide triangular flair on the back-blade that seems to typify the "fantasy" or dungeons and dragons version of a "scimitar". I actually-in almost 30 years of studying melee-weapons and antiques-have yet to come across a real world historical example of such a weapon, but I suppose it may be out there.

Guan Dao-technically, this is only a sometimes calvalry weapon, but it's unusually great weight (some surviving versions from around 1000 ad are actually known to weigh 100lbs or more) lends itself to calvary-as opposed to foot-use. It consists of a shaft between 4 and 6 feet long, tipped with a deep, heavy, curved blade that comes to a point-similar in form to a naginada. The blade is often ornately decorated. The lighter versions used in martial arts today typically weigh between 5 and 20lbs. A surviving example known as the "Green (or Blue) Dragon Crescent Blade" still exists and is on display at the Purple Cloud Temple in China today. It weighs approximately 49kg (around 110lb). Even though it's a real-world weapon that exists today, it's considered to be a magical weapon, since legend has it that it was made from the body of a green dragon. It's also known as the "Frost Blade". Light versions of this weapon-especially if they have reinforced handles-could potentially be devastating as calvalry weapons, since they could be used both as light lances-best against unarmored or lightly armored foes-and as long, slashing weapons with relatively large "sweet-spots" and blades that won't easily break when slashing down, because of their depth and design.

Calvalry-hammer-this is a long-handled warhammer with a 1-2 lb head. Very effective against armored infantry, but a good all-purpose weapon.

Morning Star-another really good weapon against armor, it's got a metal ball on a long handle, and often the ball has short spikes or studs to maximize impact. It's often confused with a flail because of the ball and spikes, but no chain or moving parts are involved.

Calvalry-flail. This is usually lighter than a typical "footman's flail". Unlike the ball-and-chain, it consists of just two pieces-a long handle (maybe 24-36 inches) attached to a short striker by a single partition. The striker is typically studded or spiked over it's entire horizontal surface. The single partition (as in two chain links, one attached to the striker, one attached to the handle), as opposed to a longer chain, allows for greater control of the striker.

Ball-and-chain: It should be noted that, while flails with long chain partitions can and have been used by calvary-especially midieval knights-they're much more difficult to control than a typical calvalry weapon, and take a great deal more skill. They're much more effective as an "opening volley" or opportunistic weapon-like a heavy lance-than they are for extended military actions. The Ball-and-chain is a useful weapon in that it's easy to carry on a mount, has massive damage-potential against an armored foe, and it can be re-used, unlike a heavy lance which can be expected to eventually break or be lost in the heat of battle.

Lasso: This is a materials-cheap, obvious, but often overlooked, calvalry weapon. It can be used to entangle a foe, to trip, to break necks, ensnare weapons, and to drag an enemy behind your horse-a very effective way of putting him out of the fight. It's very concealable, readily available, and also makes a useful tool for civilian life, which all add to it's appeal. The only great expense incurred in using this weapon is the time to learn the necessary skills.

The Scythe: Another useful tool for civilian life, the scythe makes an effective calvalry weapon if you don't have anything more handy. It's somewhat unweildy, but it can potentially do a lot of damage very quickly to more than one foe at a time-especially when driven by the momentum of a horse. It was probably overlooked more for it's connections to peasantry and unappealing nature, than for it's military potential. Heavy modifications would probably have been made by any culture to use the scythe as a regular weapon.

I hope this helps.

[BandarLover]

Yay!! Military history lessons! They're my FAAVE!

Ancient peoples must have been some bad-*** mofos to use weapons that could weigh so much (100 lbs. Are you freakin' kidding me!?) for extended periods of time. Thank you for the info Honeybadger.

And I liked the first release of Padmassa, but with Sombre's new graphics I want the upgrade!

Looks great so far guys. Keep up the good work.

[DrPraetorious]

I'm of two minds about putting the False Knights (or whatever they end up called) on armored Aurochs.

On the one hand, the EA persians shouldn't have the stirrup. Which means that the lancers would need armor on the aurochs to help brace the lance-blow.

On the other hand, if I show them on armored aurochs, they should leave armored aurochs when they die and pay the resource cost for auroch barding, which might cripple the utility of the unit. The EA game is already non-historical in the sense that there are EA lancers on unarmored horses (and different EA nations are in different time periods anyway).

Does anyone know the persian name for a Tulwar? Since these guys are eeeevil, they get to dip their Tulwar in poison, which is a good buy for a high def/prot unit anyway.

The Guan Do sounds like a fascinating weapon, but isn't typical Cataphract armament.

I'm pretty sure that cavalry hammers came later. In any case, the in-game hammer would be sufficient. I believe that the early persians used various sorts of axes from horseback, for the same purpose (against armored legionaires, specifically).

Morningstars and ball and chain are European weapons exclusively, I believe. Persians definitely used a lot of maces, some of which might "qualify" as a morning star, by virtue of being, you know, spikey. The weapon is interchangeable with an axe, though, in terms of game mechanics (morning stars are slightly better, IIRC) - so no reason to give units with both.

Scythes and Lassos are definitely weapons for the mounted villains to consider, although not the false knights or the cataphracts. I don't think it's possible to mod entangling weapons yet, unfortunately.

Anyway, consider this:
Code:

---

#newweapon xxx

#name "light flail"

#att 0

#dam 2

#def -2

#flail

#nratt 2

#len 2

#rcost 3

#end



#newweapon xxx

#name "poisoned tulwar"

#att 0

#dam 4

#def 2

#len 1

#secondaryeffect 54

#rcost 4

#end

---

There'd also be a regular tulwar lacking the poison for rcost 3. Thoughts? A tulwar is about the length of a saber, right? Is that len 1 or len 2?

I'm not at home and can't check the weapons table, so I might need to adjust some of those values.

[Shovah32]

Not possible to mod entangling weapons? Cant you just give them a renamed vinewhip or something?

[DrPraetorious]

I could give them a very low damage weapon with 'vinewhip' as a secondary effect. Or is the entangling on a vine whip already a secondary effect? I'll check when I get home.

There is no ability to "copystats" on a weapon, unfortunately.

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, I wasn't exclusively including Persian weapons, just because I figured you might want more variety.

"Shamshir" is the Persian word for sword, as well as being a specific type. They also used the straight Akinakes, the Greek-derived Xyphos, and the Kopis (with a blade rather similar to a Nepali kukri), but many Persian soldiers just carried large daggers.

They do seem to have used axes often. The Persian light battle axe is known as a Sagaris and it was used by calvalry-infact it was a Sagaris that almost killed Alexander the Great during the battle of Granicus.

Persians also used short thrusting spears (about 7 feet long) and the Palta, which was a javelin often used by calvalry. Just for the sake of completeness, Persian armies/footsoldiers also commonly used 10' long pikes, slings, and recurved bows.

An interesting fact about those short spears is, they often had counter-weights made from bronze or silver (gold for officers), and it was these counterweights that caused Persian troops to be known as "apple-bearers". Just thought it might help a bit when you're doing graphics for officers on foot.

Fighting from a bull, and going along with the whole bull-headed theme, maybe a bull-headed mace or axe? Using the horns to form blades or spikes on an ornate weapon might be decent. You could even possibly have a weapon similar to the one used by the warlord badguy at the end of Beastmaster, that can function as both a mace/axe type weapon and a flail.