Astral magic seems overpowered

[Illuminated One]

Yeah, it's not really impressive now.


@chrispedersen

The idea is interesting, what do you do with the other globals, though?
Air now has 2 gem gens (and a couple of others already) and is a quite powerful path as it is.

[Squirrelloid]

Water has a number of good spells for UW combat or just combat in general:

Shark Attack/Summon Sharks, Frozen Heart, Water Ward have already been mentioned. Friendly Currents its generally better to get from the item.

Numbness can be amazing when spammed (admittedly also doable via item, but its worth casting without one).

Encase in Ice is a pretty good anti-SC spell. Worst-case scenario you can freeze an SC until they auto-die on turn 75.

Water has some good summons as well, including Clay Men (in enchantment), Sea Serpents, Naiad Warriors, and Asp Turtles for UW use. (On land it has Catoblepae and winter wolves - both of which i've used). It also has Naiads and Kolkythiads (Streams from Hades), the former is good for bootstrapping nature, and the latter is great for bootstrapping in death or gaining death casters *while using water gems*.

Bone melter would be good if its targetting was better or it was easier to cast.

And of course the acid spells are a good supplement to the cold spells for non-UW combats, since they aren't resistable.

The problem is that many of the good water spells are crosspath, and thus require you have the right other paths to use with them. Meaning any given water nation will have access to some but not all of the decent to good water spells. Pure water spells that are good are mostly useable UW though.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

Yeah, it's not really impressive now.


@chrispedersen

The idea is interesting, what do you do with the other globals, though?
Air now has 2 gem gens (and a couple of others already) and is a quite powerful path as it is.

To the same addressee as quote:

I'm all far experimenting with more drastic balance changes. However, the other benefits of the paths need to be considered in making changes; particularly the bless benefits.

W has a big (maybe the best) bless benefit, and will get big-W pretenders for that reason. Adding a big-W spell to buff this school is a mistake because it will not persuade anyone to take water that wouldn't have anyway, and will only give certain already powerful builds even more power. Instead, W needs low level spells added/buffed, or maybe the level of existing W spells lowered to make this school more powerful via ease of access.

For the same reason as with W, putting more big-F spells to buff that school is probably not the right tack. Why not try making Falling Fires/Frost F2 and W2 respectively instead?

A has maybe the worst bless benefit, so it can stand to have more big-A spells because that will actually make it worth having a big-A pretender. Additional gem boosters might be a good idea for that reason, but should probably be a minimum of A7 because it is pretty easy to get to A6 if you have A4.

A big-N spell added might also be a good idea, because no one takes N big-bless, and would therefore make taking big N more of an option for some builds, while removing power from builds that already have a great big-bless benefit. I say _might_ because N little-bless is a great option, and so there is already some incentive to have a higher N on a pretender.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

To the same addressee as quote:

I'm all far experimenting with more drastic balance changes. However, the other benefits of the paths need to be considered in making changes; particularly the bless benefits.

W has a big (maybe the best) bless benefit, and will get big-W pretenders for that reason. Adding a big-W spell to buff this school is a mistake because it will not persuade anyone to take water that wouldn't have anyway, and will only give certain already powerful builds even more power. Instead, W needs low level spells added/buffed, or maybe the level of existing W spells lowered to make this school more powerful via ease of access.

For the same reason as with W, putting more big-F spells to buff that school is probably not the right tack. Why not try making Falling Fires/Frost F2 and W2 respectively instead?

A has maybe the worst bless benefit, so it can stand to have more big-A spells because that will actually make it worth having a big-A pretender. Additional gem boosters might be a good idea for that reason, but should probably be a minimum of A7 because it is pretty easy to get to A6 if you have A4.

A big-N spell added might also be a good idea, because no one takes N big-bless, and would therefore make taking big N more of an option for some builds, while removing power from builds that already have a great big-bless benefit. I say _might_ because N little-bless is a great option, and so there is already some incentive to have a higher N on a pretender.

Some of the issues are valid balance issues.
However, I viewed this as a different kind of problem. Getting these generators reinfoced themselves. ie., getting Well of misery makes it much more difficult for someone else to overwrite well of misery.

Designed to make the late stage globals *less* overwelming.

[Kuritza]

Just ban all the late stage globals, together with gem gens.

[Squirrelloid]

I think that design philosophy is flawed. The late game generally moves toward a global stalemate situation, where neither side can inflict enough damage to matter. Endgame globals need to be overwhelming in order to break the stalemate, otherwise games just don't end.

[RonD]

At the risk of derailing the animated discussion of water gems and CBM

If you find yourself needing to counter massed astral mages, something like Earthquake or Rain of Stones can be you best friend.

[Folket]

Where did your opponent find 40 150 gold S4 mages by turn 23?

[Agema]

Falling Frost is ultimately too powerful to be cast by W2 - it's quite capable of really messing up many armies when cast in large quantities. Compared to its rough equivalents in other paths like Blade Wind, Thunderstrike, Shadow Blast, Stellar Cascades etc. it's pretty reasonable in terms of effect (AoE and damage), casting requirements, fatigue cost and research necessary.

[Tollund]

Falling frost is worse than falling fires, especially since F2 mages can cast falling fires, while W2 mages can't cast falling frost.