British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[DRG]

Originally Posted by zovs66

Personally I don't mind the SS VH Objective flags, no different really that seeing the Communist Soviet VH Objective flags. Every time someone objects to having SS runes or 3rd Reich swastikas' flags, they never ever complain about the Soviet Communist flags. Both were murderous regimes, but I'd wager that the Communist were more ruthless and murderous and for longer than the Nazi's.

EXACTLY RIGHT. We added the ability to swap in ID tags and V hex markers to allow some personalization to scenarios. The SS runes were the last one added as I knew as the sun rises that SOMEBODY at some point would get their knickers in a knot about it but as you say....NOBODY ever suggests we remove the hammer and cycle but I figured if someone was going to complain about the runes it would be someone who uses the German cross set of tags we include and I actually never considered someone would say " What's wrong with just the normal Third Reich flag?" ( just saying THAT in the wrong place could get you in trouble ). There is nothing "wrong" with it just as there is nothing "wrong" with the Flag of the Soviet Union or the Chinese Communist flag even though those two are together responsible for 3x the number of deaths as Nazi Germany. They are part of history and on one hand we are chided for putting red stars on the wings of Soviet aircraft ( and YES I am WELL AWARE that was generally not done during the war years ) but OTOH are criticized for including SS runes for use with SS units in the game.

We include the USMC flag but no one has ever suggested that's a problem and when the next update is released there will be an optional Imperial Japanese ID tag and V hex marker and there a places in Asia that have issues with what that flag represents in their history.

So on one hand we don't have the level of accuracy some think we should have and OTOH have what some consider inappropriate levels of accuracy in other areas. We can't win. There are places the Israeli flag offends but no one suggests we remove it. There are places the Union Jack offends but no one suggests we remove it... With nearly 8 Billion people it's IMPOSSIBLE to not offend someone about something somewhere

[Pibwl]

Folks, I understand and appreciate, that Don makes a tremendous work with the games, but I just suggest some tweaks, which might improve historic accuracy and usually don't demand creating new icons, changing formations etc.
Sorry, I admit I'm quite addicted to improving accuracy in many fields. I started from writing notes on book margins, now I have improvable media like Steel Panthers (which luckilly is being developed by a a group of devoted staff) and Wikipedia
If you don't want to bother, just ignore. But something might be considered as worthy.

Originally Posted by Karagin

Keep at it, ignore the crazies, you guys have done more with this than anyone thought possible.

Agreed

Originally Posted by zovs66

Don just ignore all this drivel it’s just useless nitpicking by two folks, every post by these two as soon as I see a gal zillion letters I just scroll by and don’t even bother.

So do scroll, if you have nothing to say on the subject...

[blazejos]

In subject of Swastikas, SS runes etc. Is possible to have official blessing to use THOSE symbols in our game since 2018.

Since beginning of SPWW2 there was a additional shp files folder because German law were strict and don't allow THOSE symbols in any form in video games even in historical context.

But since 2018 German law makers made an exception for video games if follow this procedure

1. game is registered in USK
2. Authors of the game will register game in their system and ask about permission to use Hitlers symbols.
3. Permission isn't automatically. E-mail starts a discussion and this organisation will ask about context of the game and why authors want to use this symbols?
4. If they will be happy with answers. Use of THOSE will be well explained they can give official permission to use them without fear in distribution of game on territories and dependencies of German Federal Republic .

So if main authors will be interested WinSPWW2 can have official German government blessing and use swastikas without fear and remove this folder which was created because stupid law case related with Wolfenstein 3D.
Game will probably have after this procedure such age symboldon't know which age rating will be for game with THOSE symbols but propably somewhere from higher numbers.


Here articles about change of german law in 2018 in context of video games
https://www.lexology.com/library/det...8-863f2181874c
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/...n-video-games/
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JrgF...hould_care.php
https://kotaku.com/games-in-germany-...now-1828238768

And here USK [Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle] institution where game must be classified and then is possible to ask about blessing.
https://usk.de/en/

[DRG]

Błażej. The game stays as it is with the additional shp files folder. We are NOT going to ask anyone for official permission or their "blessing" to do what we have been doing for over two decades.

With the additional shp files folder, anyone who DOES prefer to use the Cross rather than the Hakenkreuz has that option so the folder will remain. Besides, there is no real way to remove the folder that is already in thousands of computers...nor do we have any desire to

[MarkSheppard]

I've recently found out some interesting information about UK OOB007 Weapon 038 17 Pounder Gun.

Normally, I wouldn't comment on it; because there's a risk of the subject devolving into everyone advocating for their own specific nationality (as can be seen in the World of Tanks / War Thunder boards); and I do like the SPCAMO approach of using generic data wherever possible; because it "normalizes" everything to the same baseline and represents a level of abstraction in simulating a very messy business called war.

But in this case, the discrepancy is large enough, I think, to merit discussion.

Recently (I don't know when exactly), the Canadian government finished a 10 year project to digitize scores of microfilm reels and place them online.

https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...2/4878?r=0&s=5

On 24 March 1945, the War Office in Whitehall, in a memorandum issued to every major British Formation (21AG, 15AG, AFHQ, CINC Middle East, India, PAIC, ALFSEA), said:

Both trials and operational experience have shown that 17-pr D.S. Shot is inaccurate. As a result of further accuracy trials with a mixture of APCBC and DS shot, it has been found that DS shot leaves a deposit in the bore and when this deposit has accumulated sufficiently the accuracy of subsequent rounds is seriously affected. After as few as 15 DS rounds the accuracy with APCBC may become appreciably worse than that with D.S.

...

All 17-pr guns which have fired DS shot must therefore be regarded as suspect as regards accuracy.

They suggested limiting the issuance of APDS shot to specific guns in a battery to minimize the issue; and that "further trials are being carried out....you will be notified of the conclusions from these trials as soon as possible."

https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...2/4876?r=0&s=5

Several months later, on 19 May 1945, Whitehall issued a followup memorandum afer trials, and basically said:

The basic accuracy of the 17 pounder was:

APCBC shot average 90% zone was 4.3 ft diameter at 1000yds
DS Shot average 90% zone was 8.2 ft diameter at 1000 yds

Essentially, the 90% zone is just that -- the area in which 90% of shot will be expected to pass through.

"The amount of degradation varies from gun to gun, but it was found that after firing only 10 rounds of D.S. shot the 90% zone in a certain gun had increased by 9.7-ft. Thus, if the initial accuracy of this gun was as given in para 2, the 90% zone to be expected with APCBC after firing the 10 rounds of DS would be 14-ft."

They found:

Provided that the fouling by DS is not allowed to progress too far it can be removed by successive rounds of APCBC. The fouling caused by 5 succesive rounds of DS shot may be expected to be removed by the next 10 APCBC rounds. Accuracy will not therefore be endangered by firing odd rounds of DS shot provided that the majority of the shooting is done with APCBC.

There was also apparently firing trials done in the Summer of 1944 with two Fireflies against a target roughly the size of a Panther turret and issued in WO 291/1263 and WO 165/135, both dated 22 September 1944 and mentioned by Nick Moran in the Chieftain's hatch:

https://worldoftanks.com/en/news/chi...armour-part-1/

400 yds
APC hit 90.5%
APDS hit 56.6%

600 yds
APC hit 73.0%
APDS hit 34.2%

800 yds
APC hit 57.3%
APDS hit 21.9%

1000 yds
APC hit 45.3%
APDS hit 14.9%

1500 yds
APC hit 25.4%
APDS hit 7.1%

As I mentioned earlier, the discrepancy is big enough I think, to warrant discussion, because 17 pdr APDS shot is powerful enough (28 pen) vs normal APCBC (17 pen) that without lowering accuracy to compensate, it makes the weapon artificially powerful.