PPB Rebalance Poll

[Phoenix-D]

Rollo, you left out something. Namely damage and range.

A PPB V does 60...50 out to range 6.
A APB V does 35...20 out to range 6
A APB VI does 40..25 out to range 6.

They may cost less, but the effectiveness drops quite a bit as well. Especially if shields are in play..

Phoenix-D

[Quikngruvn]

Bumping up the research cost of PPB's seems to me the easiest fix. Another idea would be to increase the cost of PPB's by a third to a half of their current costs. As Rollo pointed out, PPB's can get expensive in a hurry... make 'em even more expensive, and they may not be so pervasive.

Also, has anyone else noticed something odd about the PPB damage progression? Check the damage for each level of PPB's:

1: 30 25 25 25 20 20
2: 45 40 40 40 35 35
3: 50 45 45 45 40 40
4: 55 50 50 45 45 45
5: 60 55 55 55 50 50

It's almost as if there are three levels missing that could go between levels 1 and 2. Stick those three levels of research in, and suddenly you have a nice orderly progression from level 1 to the highest level (now 8). That would help balance too in that you'd have to throw that much more research into PPB's to get reasonably effective weapons.

Quikngruvn

[Tenryu]

I've attached a bit of an old component file I saved from 1.49 stuff. I honestly can't remember whether I got this piece from somewhere/someone or made it myself. I think it is mine as I did 'rebalance', LOL, most of the weapons long ago. After Gold I never moved anything over.

Maybe this can help confuse the issue more. Maybe it might help.

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam I
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 175
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 40
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 15 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam II
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 50
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 20 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam III
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 225
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 60
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 25 20 15 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam IV
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 250
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 70
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 4
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 25 20 20 15 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam V
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 275
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 80
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 5
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 25 20 20 20 15 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam VI
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 100
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 6
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 30 25 25 25 20 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam VII
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 350
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 150
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 7
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 7
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 35 30 30 30 25 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam VIII
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 200
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 8
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 8
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 40 35 35 35 30 30 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam IX
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 450
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 250
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 9
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 9
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 45 40 40 40 35 35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam X
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 300
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 10
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 10
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 50 45 45 45 40 40 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam XI
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 550
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 350
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 11
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 11
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 55 50 50 45 45 45 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

Name := Phased - Polaron Beam XII
Description := Multi-phasic energy beam which can penetrate normal shields.
Pic Num := 20
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 600
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 400
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2007
Roman Numeral := 12
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 12
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone
Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 55 55 55 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 2
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := ppbeam.wav
Weapon Family := 8

[Master Belisarius]

Dear Rollo:
Honestly, I don't know how can you compare APB VI with PPB VI. The only that you compare is the range and mineral/radioactives.

I was doing my own numbers with normal ammounts for the weapons:

APB Damage Tech Min/Rad
VI 40/35/35/30/25/25 280000 175/60
VII 40/40/35/35/30/30 402500 200/70
VIII 45/40/40/35/35/30/30 562500 225/80
IX 50/45/45/40/40/35/35 765500 250/90
X 50/45/45/40/40/35/35 1015000 300/100

PPB Damage Tech Min/Rad
II 45/40/40/40/40/35 165000 350/150
... ... ... ...
VI 60/55/55/55/50/50 290000 500/300

Please note that PPBII have aprox the same firepower, SKIP STANDARD SHIELDS, and it's a LOT more cheap to research than APB VIII.

Although APB VIII is more cheap than PPBII (225/80) vs (350/150), and have a little advantage of range, I can bet that more ships will not save you, because your ships will be unable to skip the shields of your enemy.
Also 562500 research points are a lot more than 165000, then, probably for the time that you could reach APB VIII, you will have a dead empire...

The difference with radioactives is worthless (who was out of radioactives?).
And for some more cost in mineral, that I could get colonizing more planets, after remove over them my opponents... don't think that the PPB is balanced!!!!!!

My point is: in games with small/medium galaxies, is worthless research other weapon than PPB (Duc for the early game). Simply like this.
The facts with the people playing multiplayer have demonstrated it, not my numbers.

Finally. I want to challenge here ( yea!), to play a PBW hand to hand game against me, everybody that STILL think that PPB is a balanced weapon!!!

- small galaxy.
- not full tech game.
- 2000 Racial Points.
- I can use only DUC (for the first rounds, of course!), and PPB for later.
- My opponent can use everything except PPB.

With the new Ionic Disperser unable to skip shields, I don't know a way, to play with success against PPB in small/medium galaxies, without use PPB too!

EDIT: whow, I have started my post, but needed to do other things (with a little baby here, you can bet!), and now I can see more detailed numbers!
Anyway, still I will be happy to challenge everybody that think that PPB is a balanced weapon!

EDIT 2: a few tipos.

[ May 29, 2002, 04:12: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[rextorres]

I used to think that PPB was the killer weapon until I started playing PBW and ran into a fleet armed with APB XII. PPB is great in the middle game, but its short range counteracts any supposed advantage.

I don't bother with shields until they are phased, anyway, because they are too expensive compared to armor.

In any size galaxy whoever can expand the fastest wins not who has PPB.

IMO if you want to take aim at an unbalanced component it's the talisman - I think played right it is virtually unbeatable.

[Phoenix-D]

"into a fleet armed with APB XII."

Which costs over a MILLION research points more..you could research PPB V 6 times over for the cost of getting APB XII.

Phoenix-D

[Krsqk]

I haven't heard this idea yet, which surprises me (considering I'm usually about three steps behind everybody). Why not make the PPB a supply hog? Right now, both APB and PPB use 5 supplies/shot. With the new no-supplies/no-firing thing, supplies become a lot more important. I realize the QR negates this disadvantage. It also negates the cloaked-ship-constantly-decloaking-to-attack-then-recloaking supply penalty, and a bunch of other things, too. Maybe we should start a QR Rebalance Poll.

Anyway, as Mac says, just some ideas.

[AJC]

IMO- I dont think the PPB is too powerful.

Although it may be prudent to increase the cost of researching it.

There is no doubt that it is a nasty weapon in the early stages of the game. But I believe there are ways to counter it such as armor and keeping repair ships in the vicinity of your fleets.

In fact when I faced a player using PPB extensively I didnt bother with shields and put alot of scattering armor and stealth armor on my ships which countered his advantage in weapon effectiveness until I had phased shields.

I do however think that level 6 phased shields need to be at least as strong as level 5 non phased shields.

[ May 30, 2002, 03:10: Message edited by: AJC ]

[geoschmo]

Master B, I have no doubt you could make short work of anybody using APB and you using PPB. However, I also have no doubt you could make short work of them with you using APB and them using PPB. You are on a different level than most of us here as far as skill as a player.

I also respect your opinion in a great many issues, but on this one I must respectfully disagree. I had come to the conclusion that PPB was a bit cheap to research, and thus imbalanced, but Rollo's comments got me to reconsider.

I did some experimenting today. I tried to make it as scientifically accurate as possible. I had three races all equal in characteristics. One researched PPB, one APB, and one MB (Meson BLasters, not THE MB ) I had a three planet low tech start. I did no colonizing, just stuck with the three home planets for each.

I researched until each race had Light Cruisers, and Shield generator 2, and as much as they could get of whatever their weapon tech was.

On turn 33 (Remember I didn't expand, so it's a little slower, but I wanted to eliminate that frmo the equation. It should be the same for all three races) All the races had LC and Shields 2. PPB had got to lev 2, APB level 4, and MB level 3.

By turn 48, PBB had got to level 5, APB to level 6, and MB to level 4.

At that point I started building ships. Each race built a LC with 6 engines, 2 shields, and as many large mount weapons as they could fit.

The PPB and APB could fit the same number of weapons on each ship. The MB race could fit more becasue they were smaller. The differance in cost though was telling. The APB race was able to build a ship every 2 turns, while it took 3 turns to build the PPB or MB ships.

I built for 1.2 years and then started fighting. The APB had 18 ships, to 12 of each for the other 2 races.

PPB and APB both consistantly beat the MB race. I guess the extra numebe of weapons couldnt make up for the weakness of them. Logical.

The APB race consistantly beat the PPB race as well. Honestly though it was not as cut and dried as it was against the MB race. A couple of times the PPB race did mange to fight to a draw, but usually they were completely wiped out. Although the shield skipping did allow them to damage the surviving PPB ships more heavily obviously.

This is fairly conclusive evedence that PPB's are balanced just fine, at least as far as in relation to APB. They are much stronger than MB, but that is more an issue of the MB being weaker as it is also weeaker than the APB.

If anything we should be leaving the PPB's alone and talking about making the MB's a little stronger. Although early on the MB's do have an advantage. It's jsut that the PPB catch up fair;y quickly. So perhaps they are jsut more of an early game weapon.

If we increase the level cost, or add two levels, or make the PPB's bigger, any of these suggestions, they will become too weak to be considered a legitimate choice. They are fine the way they are. The mineral cost of the comp makes up for the cheapness in research. This isn't raw numbers, this is a controlled experiment.

It would actually be somewhat worse for the PPB's in the real world, becasue people who do not research PPB's would probably tend not to research shields, or build ships with them. At least if facing an enemy that was using them.

I think the evidence is clear. Duplicate my expirement and see if my results were not accurate.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

"If anything we should be leaving the PPB's alone and talking about making the MB's a little stronger. Although early on the MB's do have an advantage. It's jsut that the PPB catch up fair;y quickly. So perhaps they are jsut more of an early game weapon."

If they're just an early game weapon.. why bother? The PPB is more effective and costs the same, plus skips shields.

Doesn't factor into any of the *other* weapons (torps, WMG/ripper/incin, grav hellbore) either..and I think they'd end up on the wrong end of the scale.

EDIT:
"I do however think that level 6 phased shields need to be at least as strong as level 5 non phased shields."

Level 5 phased: 375 points
Level 5 normal: 300

Doesn't go to 6.

Phoenix-D

[ May 30, 2002, 03:47: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]