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  #491  
Old June 22nd, 2012, 05:47 AM

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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

Do the forge bonuses really need changing? I don't really understand the objection to the current values.
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  #492  
Old June 22nd, 2012, 04:13 PM

Valerius Valerius is offline
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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

Based on the most important criteria - game balance - no, I don't think they need changing. I don't think it's just my affection for TNN/Eriu that is coloring my opinion that they are not OP. As far as Van goes, I suspect MA Van or maybe Helheim (neither of which I've played under 1.92) are the strongest of the bunch but I haven't heard complaints about them being OP.

My thoughts were basically prompted when it occured to me that starting with 10 gem items bean sidhe could forge items cheaper than other nations could and still make a profit in trade. And since they are recruit everywhere you wouldn't have to make any tough decisions as to how to use them. It seemed like this infringed a bit on Ulm's territory and I thought this was a compromise - keep the forge bonus to facilitate thugging but reduce it to the point where you can't really use it to make a profit in trade.

I gather iRFNA thought the 25% forge bonus on dwarfs/svartalfs was too much. Generally speaking, I think some people think glamour nations shouldn't have a forge bonus at all. Obviously I don't share that opinion and think a forge bonus is important (and not unthematic) to TNN/Eriu in particular but at the same time I'm fine with the non-cap forge bonus being small and mainly benefiting 5 gem magic items.

Leaving things as-is is fine in terms of balance and just adds a new aspect to the nations in terms of them having the ability develop an "Ulm light" forge economy. I was mainly thinking in terms of not infringing on Ulm's angle of having a forge economy.

Also, my comments are just along the lines of fine-tuning - the nations themselves are the most fun and interesting versions yet of TNN and especially Eriu (which had more significant changes).


On the topic of making Dwarf Elders more interesting, any chance of changing the extra E pick CBM gave them to a 50-100% random pick?
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  #493  
Old June 28th, 2012, 03:02 PM

Valerius Valerius is offline
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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

There's been much discussion of the zmey but I wanted to add my thoughts since I've been thinking about them recently. They can be quite a pain to deal with but the particularly thing that prompts me is I'm tired of seeing wars begin with each side launching their squadrons of zmey at each other. I want more variety!

I think there's a few things that contribute to their frequency. First, they are close to an optimal use of F gems. Aside from their fellow EDM summons, the Ember Lord and the (unique) firebird, I believe the entire list of F summons is fire drakes, scorpion beasts, summer lions and fire snakes. These aren't horrible summons and in fact the fire snake used to be quite a popular summon and was the big loser in the zmey's rise to prominence. But something that's notable about the list is the lack of any commander, let alone mage, summons. Compare that to its opposite element of water (a path that I think has a fairly comparable usage patter in terms of forging and spellcasting) where you have several mage commanders as well as troops that have a variety of situationally useful abilities such as amphibious, cold aura, recuperation, awe, regeneration, high HP, magic weapons.

Later on, you'll presumably be able to summon ember lords and you might think at that point you'll start seeing fewer zmey but I'm not sure if that's the case because of the second, and more important, point: namely that zmey are best in class in their raiding category. Because of that there's a strong case to keep using your F gems to summon zmey and use other paths to summon SCs, despite the fact that Ember Lords are excellent units.

There are some nations (glamour nations come to mind) that will still find it cheaper to use other units for raiding but for many nations you won't be able to beat the cost/utility of zmey (and even raiding capable nations may find zmey a useful supplement to their own units). Compare the cost of a zmey with a minimally equipped bane lord with flying boots and a frost brand. The bane lord is far more vulnerable for almost the same cost as the zmey. And of course if he's killed, your opponent may well recover some of his equipment. Don't like the bane lord example? Feel free to substitute another unit but I think you'll be hard pressed to come up with something that has the toughness and crowd clearing capability of the zmey for the same price point. Your best bet may well be the zmey's fellow EDM summon, shishis. Unlike the zmey they can cloud trapeze into enemy territory but they lack flight so once there they can't jump around like zmey. But I think even in this comparison the zmey comes out ahead because of their toughness (including multiple lives) and large AOE attack. It's also worth noting that A gems have a different usage pattern. I frequently play A nations and the last thing I want to do is spend A gems on summons given their value for fueling cloud trapeze and battefield magic. I think F nations wouldn't have the same hesitation using F gems for zmey.

Another advantage of zmey over shishis is their synergy with lychantropos' amulet (disclaimer: I despise this item ). You will likely want your shishi's to cast some buffs, particularly mistform. The zmey has no such need, making it a perfect candidate for the lych. amulet. Not only do you get regen at half the normal price but being berserk removes an angle of attack that could otherwise be used against you. Sure, there might be times when you'd prefer to hold back before attacking but overall this item is a perfect fit for zmey. If no other changes were made to zmey I'd advocate making lych. am 10 gems just because I've come to identify them so much with zmey.

I gather zmey will likely receive a price increase and be harder to summon and this can definitely help but I think it's also worth keeping in mind ways to promote other units as situationally useful raiders.

Calahan suggested removing their misc slots and I think that would neatly solve the problem. If that's too drastic you could reduce them to 1 misc slot. So they could still choose to equip a lych. amulet but since it would be an irrevocable decision there might be more hesitation to do so. In any case, with 0/1 misc slots it would no longer be possible to make them immune to all elements.

Another possibility is making them slow flyers that only have map move 2. This would encourage using other units to penetrate deeper into enemy territory.

Basically I think there's a value in keeping them as first class raiders - but not necessarily in most situations, as they are now.
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  #494  
Old June 29th, 2012, 07:44 AM

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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

One of the few things with about as much flexibility for the cost as a Zmey is an Iron Angel under Forge of Ulm.
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  #495  
Old June 29th, 2012, 02:28 PM

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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

Pythium has come up in a couple of recent conversations which reminded me that I wanted to ask if it would be reasonable to nerf MA Pythium's starting gem income. I understand that it's thematic that Pythium represents a height of magical power but the EA is considered more magical than the MA and this is represented by a 1 gem higher starting gem income. Three gems higher than their peers seems like overkill (especially considering they are far from a weak nation to begin with).

This is hardly a new situation so if it has been suggested in a previous CBM thread and rejected please ignore.
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  #496  
Old June 29th, 2012, 03:53 PM

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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

Ok, so I don't expect this suggestion to be taken seriously but I've thinking about reconciling blood magic costs with gem based costs and it occured to me what if they used the same metric and non-unique blood summons cost gems, not slaves? Because so many blood summons are cross path it would be easy to assign the appropriate gem type for most of them. Then you could ask, for instance, how many E gems is a demon knight worth compared to the other available E summons? For single path cases like fiends of darkness you could have a couple of versions of the spell using different gem types to keep the spell available to most/all blood nations. Ritual of the five gates maybe just go with S gems (probably do the same for send horror even though it's not a summon).

National blood spells could take the same approach, generally matching single path blood spells with that nation's dominant paths.

Added bonus: reduced micro since you'd only have to blood hunt to the extent of fueling battlefield magic, blood sacrificing and summoning uniques. Sure, blood nations would have to pay "real money" for their summons but OTOH they'd have some extra gold from not hunting quite as many provinces. Though if they did keep hunting to the same degree it would be interesting to see how that translated to additional power on the battlefield (more life for a life casters, etc.)

And yes, they likely wouldn't have the gem income to mass the numbers of blood summons they have now, but that just puts them on the same footing with non-blood nations.

Like I said, I'm not seriously suggesting this as a CBM change but maybe one day I'll run an experimental game with these settings.
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  #497  
Old June 30th, 2012, 07:35 AM

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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
Ok, so I don't expect this suggestion to be taken seriously but I've thinking about reconciling blood magic costs with gem based costs and it occured to me what if they used the same metric and non-unique blood summons cost gems, not slaves? Because so many blood summons are cross path it would be easy to assign the appropriate gem type for most of them. Then you could ask, for instance, how many E gems is a demon knight worth compared to the other available E summons? For single path cases like fiends of darkness you could have a couple of versions of the spell using different gem types to keep the spell available to most/all blood nations. Ritual of the five gates maybe just go with S gems (probably do the same for send horror even though it's not a summon).
I would price most troop blood summons as being worth 2 gems.
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  #498  
Old June 30th, 2012, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

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Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
what if they used the same metric and non-unique blood summons cost gems, not slaves?
What for? Just to nerf all blood powerhouses to the level of pre-CBM EA Agartha?
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  #499  
Old June 30th, 2012, 11:34 AM

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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

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what if they used the same metric and non-unique blood summons cost gems, not slaves?
What for? Just to nerf all blood powerhouses to the level of pre-CBM EA Agartha?
Isn't the question mostly something like "just for fun?" I mean, the suggestion is anti-good and the gem cost system has a large dose of arbitrary already (why does ghosts initially cost 4 death gems when you get a troll for 1 earth?) No blood summons seems more like a house-rule for specific games than anything else.

I don't know why you figure blood nations would be close-to-useless (I figure that's what you were describing when comparing it to old Agharta) even without blood summons, some of them still have large enough strengths to go around.

Comparing blood summons to the others isn't easily done either, as you can usually get a lot more blood summons from a province than you can get other summons, even as things are now. At 2 gems I compare the blood summons to the individuals summons others get. I think blood deserves a reduction in the amount of units it allows you to field, but different strokes and all that, some people seem to not just bother with setting up decent-sized parallel blood economies.
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  #500  
Old June 30th, 2012, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

Quote:
Isn't the question mostly something like "just for fun?"
Why in CBM thread then?
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