The next patch

[Wendigo]

Hey Peter, don't blame me for using your numbers!
Obviously ignoring extra gem income is a simplification, but it's good enough to evaluate returns in regards to investment anyway.

Graeme:

Who says you won't cast search spells? You must remember that water magic is essentially useless other than for quickness, so it's not a particularly big loss to convert all your water gems to astral ones.

Oportunity costs. Mages & gems used to do one cannot be used to do the other. So you gotta choose.

It does only take about 35 turns to get to 100 clams once you have a decent income in other gems, as that's exactly what I've done with R'Lyeh.

Could you elaborate on this? % magic sites? map? # opponents? who are you putting 100 clams on?
And most important of all: where Atlantis & Ermor in the game?

What kind of game are you playing that you can spend 750-1000 gems in items with no immediate return, without your military power resenting from it? Really, if you had such a surplus why didn't you just go for the game & start killing opponents?

Re clams vs Voice of Tiamat:

No reason you can't do both. But once you've searched all your water provinces, there's no reason not to make clams.

Opportunity costs of course. Even more important because when you delay clam forging you delay your Return On Investment from those clams.

I am not saying that clam-forging cannot work, rather that it applies to very specific game settings. It's obvious that strategies based on economy building are stronger the longer the game, tho I find some of the 'fixes' being suggested a bit radical.

Why don't you just play faster games? The same fun with less MM.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Hey Peter, don't blame me for using your numbers!
Obviously ignoring extra gem income is a simplification, but it's good enough to evaluate returns in regards to investment anyway.

Not really. Any water gem income cuts the time to 100 (TO100) by a good 10 turns or so.

Graeme:
Oportunity costs. Mages & gems used to do one cannot be used to do the other. So you gotta choose.

But you can do both. With construction 6 it only takes a water 1 mage to build a clam, and those mages aren't that hard to come by. What else would you do with a water 2 mage?

Could you elaborate on this? % magic sites? map? # opponents? who are you putting 100 clams on?
And most important of all: where Atlantis & Ermor in the game?

50% magic sites, independents 6, Orania, 17 players. The clams go on star children who are researching.

What kind of game are you playing that you can spend 750-1000 gems in items with no immediate return, without your military power resenting from it? Really, if you had such a surplus why didn't you just go for the game & start killing opponents?

I didn't have that kind of surplus. I had an income of about 5 water gems per turn and 10 astral per turn. From turn 20 when I started, I had my 100 clams by turn 55. Whenever I needed gems quickly I just skipped one turn of clam production and had an easy 20 to 50 pearls to work with for that turn. I'm not sinking 750-1000 gems into the clams. I'm sinking about 150 water gems (useless for anything else), and about 300 astral pearls from site income. The rest of the gems are produced by the clams themselves. There's really nothing else that's worthwhile for a nation like R'lyeh to do with its water gems.

Opportunity costs of course. Even more important because when you delay clam forging you delay your Return On Investment from those clams.

You don't actually delay the ROI much at all, since any site based income makes the TO100 come 10's of turns faster.

I am not saying that clam-forging cannot work, rather that it applies to very specific game settings. It's obvious that strategies based on economy building are stronger the longer the game, tho I find some of the 'fixes' being suggested a bit radical.

Building clams is an geometric growth with time. This is something that very few other strategies can produce.

Why don't you just play faster games? The same fun with less MM.

I wasn't aware that a game that's in turn ~60 was a long game.

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
But you can do both.

If you can do both then you are swimming in gems & have a comfortable lead.

I didn't have that kind of surplus. I had an income of about 5 water gems per turn and 10 astral per turn. From turn 20 when I started, I had my 100 clams by turn 55.
...
I'm not sinking 750-1000 gems into the clams. I'm sinking about 150 water gems (useless for anything else), and about 300 astral pearls from site income.

450 gems, 300 of them being astrals is still a substantial amount. Just checked your numbers & they only seem to match if those gems are used from the very start (ie, you start with 30 clams in turn 21-22), so you are likely to have spent much more than your estimation.

Your experience seems to differ also from mine. By turn 20 I am often already at war or planning to, and form then on do not stop fighting until the end of the game.

From an outsider PoV Atlantis seems to have been particularly passive in your game, same with Ermor. By turn 20+ a number of land nations should also have developed the means to at least be able to raid seas, if not hold on them.

The rest of the gems are produced by the clams themselves. There's really nothing else that's worthwhile for a nation like R'lyeh to do with its water gems.

Debatable. Early on Voice of Tiamat gives better returns that clams. Later on Murdering winter, Wolven winter + a number of good summons are also an option. And that without considering battlefield usage.

I am also far from convinced that spending 15-20 astrals to start getting the returns 10 turns later is a good move.

I wasn't aware that a game that's in turn ~60 was a long game.

We obviously have different tastes on this.

edit- typo

[ April 02, 2004, 20:39: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Wendigo:

quote:

---

20: Clams= 10 Income= 15 Waste= 0 Store= 18 --> Produced 1 clams

is not present in the game.

Even so, it's disputable that a clam strategy would be a better investment than an early casting of Voice of Tiamat on every sea: Sacrifice 10 gems for a 1 gem income, or 8 gems for a 2+ income?

---

You are missing the point Wendigo - Voice of Tiamat has hard max limit - the total number of your provinces. Clams don't. As Graeme said it's geometrical progression.

[ April 02, 2004, 19:34: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:

You are missing the point Wendigo - Voice of Tiamat has hard max limit - the total number of your provinces. Clams don't. As Graeme said it's geometrical progression.

I am missing nothing.

It was argued that there was no better use for early water gems, so I just offered a better use.

As the game advances, it's less and less of an advantage to invest those waters in clams (as you will get less return, and there will be new options available).

You guys seem to defend that dumping huge amounts in clams is both necessary & compulsory to be able to compete. I have certainly won more than once without doing that, so I dispute this line of reasoning.

What I am saying is that this 'geometric growth' strategy only works in some very specific settings: big map, long game, water income, passive players, relative early invulnerability.

Nothing I have seen posted so far contradicts the above, and Graeme's example seems to rather confirm it. Additionally, forging clams is definitely not the only way to get 'free' gems/money/troops.

You might argue that it's a very cost effective one, and I would agree that it could indeed be some times, but I will tell you also that you maybe should consider putting some more care in the choice of settings for your next game, and be more agressive vs those hoarders.

[ April 02, 2004, 19:54: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Originally posted by Stormbinder:
[qb]

quote:

---

You are missing the point Wendigo - Voice of Tiamat has hard max limit - the total number of your provinces. Clams don't. As Graeme said it's geometrical progression.

I am missing nothing.

It was argued that there was no better use for early water gems, so I just offered a better use.

---

Nobody said you shouldn't look for water sites or use both Voices if you have sea provinces. Quite opposite - it was said here many times that you should do it, and than dump all your increased water income in clams, if you are using clam hoarding strategy. This way you'll be able to make even more clams and have larger gem income at the end of the same period, as long as this period is longer than 15-20 turns, depending on your particular settings.

And because you only have limited number of provinces and search spells for water are cheap, you can serach every province (except farm lands perhaps)with minimum water gem investment. After these provinces are searched you will concentrate on clams using your water and/or astral income, while using all other gem types for defense/attack/whatever.

If you have any water/astral income and water mages (and you obviosly do since you need them to produce clams) you can do it quite quickly.

You guys seem to defend that dumping huge amounts in clams is both necessary & compulsory to be able to compete. I have certainly won more than once without doing that, so I dispute this line of reasoning.

Have you ever played medium or long games against good opponent who is using clam-hoarding strategy? Based upon your Posts I seriosly doubt it. Go and play it, and than come back and tell us about your victory.

You have said yourslef earlier that you are playing short games and even went so far as to recommended all of us to do the same. Thanks, but some of us like different game types than you. Why do you feel that everybody should play the type of game that you are playing? Because in this particular game type the clam hoarding strategy is less valid? Or because you happened to dislike what you think of as "MM"? That's strange arguments in my opinion...

Nothing I have seen posted so far contradicts the above, and Graeme's example seems to rather confirm it. Additionally, forging clams is definitely not the only way to get 'free' gems/money/troops.

It's not about free gems or money or troops. It's about it in rapid geomethrical progression. The "avalanche" effect if you are familar with it. If you think you can point any other "geometrical progression" strategy avalaible in this game that is as efficient as clam hoarding please do it - I would be interested to know. I doubt that you can however.

[ April 02, 2004, 20:42: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Nobody said you shouldn't look for water sites or use both Voices if you have sea provinces. Quite opposite - it was said here many times that you should do it,

False. Nobody had mentioned Voice of Tiamat before I did so.

and than dump all your increased water income in clams, if you are using clam hoarding strategy. This way you'll be able to make even more clams and have larger gem income at the end of the same period, as long as this period is longer than 15-20 turns, depending on your particular settings.

Bul****. Graeme did not start making them until turn20. He did not start getting his investment back until well into turn40+.

Have you ever played medium or long games against good opponent who is using clam-hoarding strategy? Based upon your Posts I seriosly doubt it. Go and play it, and than come back and tell us about your victory.

I have been playing Dom & Dom II for over 3 years, all type of maps & games. Experience & tastes are 2 different things.

If you are interested in serious debate or a game, I am available, otherwise keep your winks for yourself.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
450 gems, 300 of them being astrals is still a substantial amount. Just checked your numbers & they only seem to match if those gems are used from the very start (ie, you start with 30 clams in turn 21-22), so you are likely to have spent much more than your estimation.

A bit more, but there are very few uses for astral gems in the mid game, and your site searching can be performed more effectively by a group of multiple mages casting specifically targeted spells.

Your experience seems to differ also from mine. By turn 20 I am often already at war or planning to, and form then on do not stop fighting until the end of the game.

I managed to create non-agression pacts and alliances with all my neighbours, and any exploratory attacks were met by a force of many Illithid's and fodder. Gateway and a good fortress/lab network allows R'Lyeh to move many troops very quickly.

From an outsider PoV Atlantis seems to have been particularly passive in your game, same with Ermor.

Atlantis and I were allied from turn one, and Ermor was busy dealing with Atlantis and the other nations surrounding it.

Debatable. Early on Voice of Tiamat gives better returns that clams. Later on Murdering winter, Wolven winter + a number of good summons are also an option. And that without considering battlefield usage.

Sure you can use murdering winter, but it requires one of your national heroes, or a very rare 3 water starspawn and construction 6 to cast it. By the time you have developed the ability to cast it regularly you could have built enough clams to support casting it once per turn.

I am also far from convinced that spending 15-20 astrals to start getting the returns 10 turns later is a good move.

I actual consider the returns to come immediately, since it allows you to produce more astral items and such in any given turn, rather than worrying about keeping a stockpile of gems that can't be replenished quickly.

We obviously have different tastes on this.

Sure, but to say that one should avoid playing games that go beyond 40 turns to keep them balanced is hardly a good thing.

[Stormbinder]

False. Nobody had mentioned Voice of Tiamat before I did so.

It was said that you should look for water gems to add to your intital water/astral income by both Graeme and Peter. Voice of Tiamat is just one posible option. Read Posts below.

Bul****. Graeme did not start making them until turn20. He did not start getting his investment back until well into turn40+.

I am not in Graeme's game, so I can't comment for him. But I think the fact that he is winning his game while in war with all other 4 opponnents, according to Zap, speaks for itself. If you have any further questions or comments about Greame's game I suggest talk to him, not to me.

I have been playing Dom & Dom II for over 3 years, all type of maps & games. Experience & tastes are 2 different things.

Good for you. Than you should be able to reilize that different people have differnt tastes when it comes to playing Dom2, and the fact that your tastes lies in some particualar settings doesn't mean that everybody should play it, or that any unbalances that manifest themself outside of these settings does not matter.

If you are interested in serious debate or a game, I am available

I am. I asked you specific question that you haven't answered - you were refering to some other strategies that were as effective/abusive as clam hoarding. Can you name any?

[ April 02, 2004, 21:21: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
False. Nobody had mentioned Voice of Tiamat before I did so.

Site searching was mentioned considerably before you mentioned it in this thread.

Bul****. Graeme did not start making them until turn20. He did not start getting his investment back until well into turn40+.

I could, however, have stopped making them at any point if necessary, and immediately had more total gem income than what I would have had if I had used only provincial site searching and used my gems for various things.