Had a few random thoughts on the water magic path today, concluded they were just cause to resurrect this thread. Methinks these are better than my previous suggestions(Well, except Groinshatter) because, thus far, two distinct complaints have been put forth regarding the water path:
1) That water is underpowered, which is sillier than a colloquialism indicating degree of silliness via colorful allegory, and
2) That, even with the water 9 blessing, players have no reason to invest in high levels of water, as all the best spells are lower level. This latter claim is, in my opinion, truer than a spit-shined tautology on Easter.
My prior suggestions, although groin-annihilatingly good, failed to address complaint #2. I say unto you, that ends… now.
Proposition I – Hermit's Rebirth
The Spiel: People(Me) have complained that many(Not all) of the proposed high-level water spells mentioned earlier in this thread disregard both the essential style and symbolism of water, and the unique strategic/tactical niche of the water magic path. While it's true that many spells from different paths achieve relatively similar effects, I'd rather not see water magic become "Just like death, nature, & fire, only weaker". Mind you, I still think a "Miscellaneous" path would be deeply cool, but that's a story for another day.
My point being, a truly high level water spell should do something no other spell can, something potentially unbalanced, something that has the Dom 2 community in a nerf-demanding uproar. And so, at level 5 or 6(Below Ritual of Rebirth, at any rate), at path level 7 or 8, in either Thaumaturgy, Enchantment, or maybe even Alteration, we should have a water(Or possibly water/death, water/nature, or even water/astral) spell which is, at first glance, just like the Ritual of Rebirth, only better and more path-intensive. Not only will this spell resurrect a dead hero and return him to an immaculate, unembalmed state, it'll even remove all afflictions and, furthermore, all curses and horror marks, an unprecedented feat of symbolic moisture. You can even use it on a living hero, if you like. The catch? Almost purely symbolic.
You see, this spell plays on the Tao Te T'ien Chi/Heraklitus aspect of water, the paradoxical mutability/immutability, motion/stasis, formlessness/multiplicity. It also throws incorporates a frankly unnerving and entirely unintentional bit of Freudian/Jungian return to the womb. Ick. The water washes away everything, not just death and injury, but memory, identity, existence itself. It simultaneously sanctifies and empowers these notions, but that's religious paradox for ya. Point is, instead of Mu-ing the affected hero out of existence, it reduces his experience to 0, removes the effects of any empowerment, returning him to his base magic levels, removes his kill record and all those sins Marignon are all worked up about(No more Vengeance of the Dead for him) and, consequently, removes him from the hall of heroes. At least prophets remain prophets. If this now seems appallingly underpowered, there's an alternative, albeit a frighteningly exploitable one. Instead of the hero losing his deeds and legend simply because he's reduced to a quasinatal state, his legend lives on independently of him, Earthdawn Naming style. The hero retains still loses his stats, but nonetheless retains his position in the Hall of Heroes. He therefore possesses a heroic ability. But not the one he had before the rebirth. Now THAT'S what I call powerfully symbolic change. Keep in mind his new ability'd be at the same level of power as the one he had before. Quickness 300% for everyone! Explotalicious!
This spell shouldn't affect mindless heroes, as it's all about FINDING mindlessness, nor should it affect demons, which were presumably never born, have no innocence to which to return, and are too fundamentally attuned to cosmic and spiritual goals and missions to achieve the passive, zen acceptance of stuff in general which is part and parcel of this spell. Ditto for angels. I don't see why undead wouldn't be affected, in a gothy, Anne Ricey way, with the exception of immortal undead. Besides which, if you manage to get an immortal killed outside your dominion, you don't deserve her back.
Wished for Horrors shouldn't be affected, either, but that's awfully case-specific, innit?
Ooh, bit of an afterthought, shouldn't heroes with no levels in death magic affected by the death magic Ritual of Rebirth gain a level or two in death? I mean, they’ve been DEAD.
The Straight Skinny:
Research level 5 or 6
Thaumaturgy, Enchantment, or Alteration
Water 7, Water 8, or Water 7/1 Death, Nature, or possibly Astral
Gem cost: Search me. 10 or 15, like the Ritual of Rebirth, makes sense, unless you go for the Version that empowers in water or transmutes heroic abilities.
Effect: Affects a friendly unit in the Hall of Heroes, returning it to life if dead, removing afflictions, curses, horror marks, and empowered magic levels, and reducing its kills and experience to 0. One Version removes the hero from the Hall of Heroes, and strips him of his heroic ability. An exploitable alternate Version swaps his existing ability with a random alternate ability.
Does not affect demons, mindless units, or immortal undead.
Proposition II – Ghostwater Tides
The Spiel & The Straight Skinny: Not much to explain here, it's like Thetis' Blessing in reverse. All aquatic units can freely swim around on ethereal currents on land, becoming part of a clichéd surrealist schtick… THAT KILLS. Land sharks terrorizing the populace, triggerfish stealing pies off windowsills, kraken running for public office, nudibranchs just kinda nudibranching around. Level-, path-, and cost-wise, this spell should probably be just like Thetis' Blessing, though it just MIGHT necessitate a level or two of astral(The ether plus the moon and tides) or air.
Lasts until it is dispelled or replaced, a few seconds before a resounding fishy SPLAT is heard throughout the surface world. It would be nice if said fishy SPLAT could result in a month-long supply bonus.
Proposition III – Maps with more ocean provinces. Sure, it leaves Ulm in a bit of an unpleasant position, but we can't ignore the fact that, stylistically speaking, water is meant to dominate the seas, not the land. This results in water being the ultimate defensive path(Which is especially good for R'lyeh, since using Astral without ever leaving your unassailable home is a perfectly viable strategy, especially with clams providing pearls). However, no one seems to have much cause to wage war in the water until the endgame, since it takes a hell of a commitment to defeat the two water nations on their own turf. More water=more frequent use of those spells most people consider useless. Then again, this doesn't solve the problem of the best water magic being low-level. Getting back on track…
Proposition IV – Acknowledge Thing That Is Not
The Spiel: Heh. Cute name, if I say so meself. Maybe R'lyeh Should Not Be, but the Thing That Is Not is one step ahead of them, baby! It's even ahead of all those Nameless Things we've heard so much about.
This level 9 water/death, water/air or water/astral Conjuration calls into being a formless, tireless, relentless, shoeless embodiment of Nothing in Particular. More of a very abstract symbolic fusion of water and air, as suggested above, than a straightforward manifestation of water, the Thing cannot be caught, cannot be slowed, cannot be fought, cannot be reasoned with, and will kill Sarah Connor if it's the Last thing it does. It's ethereal, faster than God(Well, most god chasses, anyway), possibly mistformed or glamoured, causes fear, has insanely high defense skill and magic resistance, is a size 4 or 5 trampler, recuperates(Or simply can't get battle afflictions, curses or horrormarks), regenerates(Sloughs off the illusion that there is anything there to hurt, that is), has 0 encumbrance, and is stealthier than a greased heliophagus on a moonless night. Being both an extension of the path most closely associated with deflection and redirection and of Nothing and Nowhere(In their most approachable guise, mind you), the Thing also has Blood Vengeance(!), because hitting yourself is much, much easier than hitting an abstraction of nonexistence which happens to be able to trample you to smithereens.
It should have at least one ordinary damage causing attack, in addition to a bunch of secondary effects one tends to associate with going into hand to hand combat with The Void, such as blindness, feeblemind and Soul Slay.
It's also an assassin, and what an assassin! A massive tidal wave of nothingness too stealthy for any sentry to detect rising out of nowhere, that's enough to make any commander appreciate the surreal beauty of high-level Conjuration. Ironically enough, it also gives most commanders a deep appreciation of the merits of Being Elsewhere, even though that's technically where the Thing is.
So, what are its disads? Being nothing, it can't use magic items, not even miscellaneous ones. If at all possible, it should be made immune to empowerment and heroism. Tee hee, "immune to heroism". It might be the very best out-of-the-box pretender killing assassin conceivable, but it can never be a true SC, and abominations, tarrasques, hordes from hell, and other level 9 summons should all be substantially more cost effective against armies. In fact, terrifying as these things are in single combat, a well prepared fire or air magic wielding army can take one out with relative ease. Provided they can handle the blood vengeance.
Still, if your Bane Spiders keep failing to carry out the contract on that Vastness or Otherness, this is the Other Otherness for you. Also fun at sieges! Good luck keeping this thing out of anywhere!
Oh, and it has leadership 0, obviously enough. I mean, duh.
The Straight Skinny:
Research level 9
Conjuration
Water 8 or 9 combined with 3 or 4 levels of death, astral, or air
Gem cost: Lots. On par with abominations and tarrasques
Effect: Summons one Thing That Is Not
HP: ? Size: 4 or 5 PROTECTION: 0 MORALE: 30 MAGIC RESISTANCE: Right up there with Doom Horrors. STRENGTH: ? ATTACK: ? DEFENSE: Obscenely high. PRECISION: 7. For no reason. MOVE: 3/Faster than you ENCUMBRANCE: 0
Regenerates(?%), Trampler, Ethereal, Blood Vengeance(+?), Glamour?, Mistform?, Causes Fear(+?), Recuperation(100%), Stealthy(+30), Assassin, Need Not Eat, Mindless, Magic Being, All Survivals, Siege Bonus(+?)
Proposition V – Secret Ears
The Spiel: Fish see a lot of things. Birds and badgers and whatever see a lot more, but they're constantly squawking about it to whomever deigns to listen. Fish tell no tales. They're hiding something. But we're on to them. Secrets have power. Power is fun. This spell is like the Eyes of God, only way better. Thing is, it only works on ocean and river provinces. It's not that high-path, so it doesn't fix the lack of high-path water spells, but it sure is spiffy. If we insist on making it higher level(Though it would overlap astral a bit too much), we can give it a really limited and unreliable Strands of Arcane Power site-finding effect in friendly provinces, possibly limited to water magic sites or to level 1 or 2 sites. If this spell could be logicallt combined with Ghostwater Tides without being overpowered, that'd be supercool.
School'd be Conjuration, because of the fishies, or Thaumaturgy, because of the secrets.
The Straight Skinny: Heh, I get it, "The Straight Skinny", just like in Starship Troopers.
Research level 5. 6 or 7 for site-finding Versions.
Conjuration or Thaumaturgy
Water 5 or 6. 7 or 8 for site-finding Versions.
Gem Cost: 50
Effect: Accurate scrying info on military, income, supplies, resources, and buildings in all water and river regions, Eyes of God style patrol bonus in friendly dominion. Hardcore Version acts as limited site-finder in friendly dominion. Lasts until it is dispelled or the caster is killed. If possible, does not work while the caster is away from water.
Proposition VI – Dome of Arcane Deflection
The Spiel & The Straight Skinny: Miniscule variant of what's already been suggested. It's a dome. You extend its duration with gems. It has a 30% chance of redirecting any spell cast at it to a neighboring province, a 20% chance of redirecting it to a random province in the world, a 10% chance of redirecting it at the caster's province, or the caster if it's a commander-targeting spell.
Proposition VII – Erosion/Thoughts Like Raindrops/Name Pending
The Spiel & The Straight Skinny: It's just like Antimagic, only in reverse, at a different research level, path level, & fatigue cost, possibly under Evocation. All enemies' magic resistance drops for the duration of the battle. There is no resistance roll to prevent this. Unfortunately, this seems like yet another water/astral combo. Bad sign, that is. A very bad sign. Ah, well, what can ya do? At least they're symbolically consistent.
Proposition VIII – Theft of Reason
The Spiel: Remember Hermit's Rebirth? Like that, only in a bad way. The target reaches a profound spiritual awareness, ascending beyond our petty worldly concerns and, in the process, becomes thoroughly useless. This sounds like another water/astral combo, unless you want to reinterpret it to mean water simply washes away the commander's sanity. It's advantage(And what an advantage!) is that it is guaranteed to target commanders, and water is not a path known for precise battle magic. Its disadvantage is a higher fatigue cost than, say, Soul Slay, and less impressive results.
Those successfully affected have a 33% chance of being feebleminded, a 33% chance of being muted(Theft of speech), a 33% chance of losing commander status, and a 5% chance of actually transcending the physical plane. So, even if a target fails its resistance roll, there's a 0.77^3*0.9 chance of nothing happening. Of course, there's a 5% chance of transcendence, in which case the target is effectively dead, and cannot be resurrected by the Ritual of Rebirth, or anything else, for that matter. Including immortality. If this cannot be easily coded, I suppose the target could always be killed, muted, feebleminded, paralyzed(200), and gain the "Enlightened" or "Inanimate" battle affliction, which is harder to heal than a never healing wound and reduces EVERYTHING to 0. THAT oughta drive the point home.
Depending on how important success is, this spell is mid- to high-level.
The Straight Skinny:
Research level 5
Evocation or Thaumaturgy
Water 2 or 3, possibly Astral 1 or 2, as well
Fatigue Cost: 40 or 50 if level 3, 70 or 80 if level 2
Effect: 33% chance of "mute" affliction, 33% chance of feeblemind, 33% chance of loss of commander status,
Magic resistance negates
Does not affect mindless units
Proposition IX – The Path Confounds/The Path Yields/It's a Long, Long Road, From Which There is no Return
The Spiel & The Straight Skinny: Kinda like Theft of Reason, only as a GLOBAL. Strikes at random, independently of the caster's dominion. Painful stuff. Affects only commanders, but does so with much, much greater regularity than Wrath of God, for instance. Fortunately, those who stand to lose the most(Mages) traditionally have high magic resistance, but this spell should be a nightmare for nations such as Ulm, who would constantly need to replace rank-and-file commanders in order to move their armies around. On the bright side, they'd be able to supplement these armies with small squads of elite former commanders. Unfortunately for the caster, this affects his own commanders as well. Fortunately for the caster, as well as Pythium, Caelum, Atlantis, R'lyeh, Mictlan, Jotunheim, anyone with mages who get elemental randoms, and anyone willing to empower his favorite commanders, water mages are far less likely to be affected(Not sure how much less likely, but something along the lines of how earth makes you resistant to Wind Ride).
Effectiveness of all research, except that of water mages, is also decreased, and ritual spells and item forgings have a chance of failing(No gems are lost. Well, maybe a handful).
Surprise, surprise, this one seems like water/astral, too. I guess that's what happens when you fixate on the symbolic aspects of water. Anyway, this'd clearly be a very high level spell. It fills a strategic and thematic niche unoccupied by other magical paths, and it's very, very powerful, though perhaps not as powerful as…
Proposition X – Spell With Cool Name
The Spiel: Presumably, all life in Dom 2, with the exception of R'lyeh and Abyssia, originated in the oceans. The Sea King was kind enough to let them move out and do things their way, despite the fact that the ingrates were mooching off him at every turn, completely and utterly dependent on his water, his salt, his color blue to live full and color-coordinated lives.
He let them go and found their little kingdoms, he opened wide the vault of the First Bank of Water, he doled out water through cloud, through river, through lake, through cocktail, let it fill their fields, their blood, their waterbeds. And so, life ground on(Very anti-water expression, that, but does the Sea King mind? No, 'cause he's such a swell guy), thoroughly oblivious to just how deep in debt it was, because the Sea King is a nice guy, and never felt the urge to collect on any of the millions of years of life he's so generously let the surface world have. Then the Ascension Wars came.
The Straight Skinny:
Research level 9
Conjuration, Evocation, or maybe Enchantment
Water 9, or maybe even 10
Gem cost: Whoah, Nellie! At least as much as Utterdark or Illwinter.
Effect: All non-underwater provinces experience an unspeakably sharp drop in supplies. Even growth-3 nations should be unable to field more than the tiniest of armies without supply producing mages/items, and no death-3 nation should have more than 0 supplies in any province. Unrest rises to unmanageable heights, a la Illwinter, populations drop off like flies, a la Burden of Time, the effectiveness of bloodhunting is decreased nearly to the point of nonexistence(Dousing -3 or 4, at the very least. Can't tap the power of blood when its very substance refuses to cooperate, and everyone's spontaneously anemic).
Does not interfere with Perpetual Storm(Dry ice, anyone?), adds +1 or possibly +2 to penetration of Lure of the Deep.
Remains in effect until dispelled, the caster is killed, the province in which it was cast is captured(And the Sea King's vault opened), or everyone dehydrates
May only be cast underwater
Logically speaking, Abyssia should probably be immune to these effects, with the exception of bloodhunting. Would this be unbalancing, though? Ermor and the two underwater nations are already immune or semi-immune, after all. Either way, this spell, especially combined with Lure of the Deep and Sea of Ice, would really increase the effectiveness of the defensive tactics which suit the two underwater nations so well.
Last of all, Proposition XI – Lobstercall
The Speil & The Straight Skinny: Calls a lobster.
Lobster sticks to magnet.
Update: Added space between body of post and "Lobster sticks to magnet", for added effect. I'm an artiste.
[ June 20, 2004, 01:38: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]
Re: Suggestions to improve the Water Magic discipline
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