Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

[Blitz]

The whining will surely start anew if the current crop of whiners has their way and gets a significant nerf to the VQ, when souped-up GKs start getting crammed down people's throats.

Let me explain this to you in a different way Norfleet. In every MP game these issues come up. You, like myself have probably played a lot of these games, and we've seen this movie before. I hesitate to use a RTS example, because of the usual TBS snobbery against the "strategy for the masses clickfest" flames, but it's the best comparison I can think of.

Back when Warcraft 3 first came out there was a unit called the Demon Hunter. Given the right equipment, this unit could kill entire armies and bases all by itself. Huge heated debates raged on message Boards and a lot of the same kinds of arguments were used that we are seeing here. Good players could overcome the Demon hunter because they were skilled players, but in the end the Demon Hunter was given a HUGE nerf and you know what?

The good players were still good players, the bad players were still bad players... and the Demon Hunter, even after his huge nerf was still a great unit. You just didn't see him in every single game, and we didn't have the boredom of seeing the same unit over and over again.

That's probably what's going to happen here Norfleet. The VQ is going to get nerfed, because even with all your good arguments (sometimes I wonder why the hell you use her if she sucks so bad), it's plainly obvious to everyone that the VQ is quite a bit better than the rest of the pretenders. And you know what? You'll either keep using the weaker Version or find another strategy to keep winning.

The greatest thing about it Norfleet? Now when you kick someone's *** with a Ghost King or Carrion Dragon, they can't say squat. Know why? Because you are a good player and you'll adapt. That is... unless you can't win without your precious vampire

From what I've heard, you seem to have a pretty good idea how this game is played. And I'm pretty sure that once the inevitable happens, you'll do just fine. So stop fighting it and just accept your nerf like a man.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
... Why does immortality heal all wounds? I thought that was what recuperation was for. I mean - you come back from the dead instantly, AND you heal wounds?

Mythology, folk tales, all those have lots of instances of beings obtaining immortality. And finding out that immortality is a curse - living forever after a hand is crushed, an eye is lost, reduced to a suffering heap of flesh that only wishes it could die.

If the VQ and other immortals had to obtain the Chalice, the high level Nature spell, or whatnot, they might not be so unbalanced. A blind crippled armless VQ isn't so scary, now is it?

There's a good point. The full-rebuild makes more sense (to me) for a Phoenix (back from the ashes), but immortality mechanics are sort of thin ground for logical considerations.

(And this highlights another thing that is basically ... dubious, that way that most pretenders wind up cripples. C'mon! They're on the verge of godhood!)

Hmm, game was developed by Norse people. Odin is more or less the head of the (pre-Christian) Norse pantheon has the "lost an eye" affliction. And I don't recall anyone bellyaching about it!

If a pretender is so great, how come he let himself get gimped? Guess his player isn't as clever as all that. I'm losing faith already!

Either immortality shouldn't heal wounds, or all pretenders should have a slow form of recuperation.
...

If you want everyone to heal afflictions for whatever reason, there's a mod for that.

PvK

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Originally posted by LintMan:
How about this for a switcheroo-style game:
Everyone designs a pretender for a race, submits it, and Posts the details of their design. If there are any stinker pretender designs, people can vote that that designer has to play his own cruddy pretender. All the other (resaonable) pretenders get randomly assigned to the other players.

I LIKE this one. It's better (and shorter, and more directly self-policing) than the "Double-Header Switcheroo" idea I was working on this morning... Game One with your own design, then as soon as someone gets knocked out, Game Two starts with Current Leader getting the next-to-Last-place player's nation, working inward. (with one less player-- the player knocked out of Game 1 not participating in Game 2.) Best combined finish (your nation G1, the nation you ended up with G2, your nation as it was played in G2, weighting to be determined) wins the match. The point is that players should be building pretenders they wouldn't too much fear as opponents while still being playable on their own. {Looking again at your proposal... how would it be known that the design posted was the real one actually submitted? Likely safer to have the Game Director post them...}

Also, there should be a chance that you could randomly get your own design, so if you go for a very mediocre pretender (not quite bad enough for people to stick it to you), you still have to worry about getting stuck with it.

As far as creatively bad pretender designs, my pick would be for something like an immobile "rainbow" oracle or blood fountain.

Yes, and OUCH. Uses all the points uselessly. At least it can forge things though...
Anyone have any comments on the "No Duplicate Avatars Please" concept? It's been kinda neglected... {nuts that's still a junky name for it...}

[PvK]

Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu:
... Anyone have any comments on the "No Duplicate Avatars Please" concept? It's been kinda neglected... {nuts that's still a junky name for it...}

Sounds fine to me. I don't remember if you mentioned, but ideally a non-player would check the pretenders, so fog-of-war about your opponents isn't lost.

PvK

[Anglachel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

Yep. I repressed a sigh this morning when I read yet another topic about the Vampire Queen and how to "fix" her. Would be nice if you guys that object to her would try and look for "in game" solutions to your problems with the Vampire Queen rather than "out of game"(i.e. NERF HER!) ones. You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly. Just take a step back from the whole Vampire Queen thing and try to get some perspective. An "in game" solution would be more creative and fun to me than an "out of game" solution. If there were no "in game" solution to the Vampire Queen THEN she would need to be nerfed. From reading on this forum, this seem to NOT be the case though. Do a search and you will find Vampire Queen counter tactics galore. Anyway, this will be the first and Last time I post on this subject. Pretty tired of the perpetuation of it and don't want to add any more to it than this post.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Something is wrong if people can get a Dracolich for 50 points, or a Dracolich for 100 points.

The dracolich isn't immortal, so it's priced at the same rate as the other dragons.

---

But if _both_ picks are the identical Dracolich, one selection is buying it for 50 points more than the other selection.

Not to mention that the player will have thought she was getting a Bog Mummy.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
But if _both_ picks are the identical Dracolich, one selection is buying it for 50 points more than the other selection.

Only one of those bog mummies is a dracolich. That's the 50 point form, which has a bog mummy as its alternate form. The other one is the immortal bog mummy.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LintMan:
How about this for a switcheroo-style game:
Everyone designs a pretender for a race, submits it, and Posts the details of their design. If there are any stinker pretender designs, people can vote that that designer has to play his own cruddy pretender. All the other (resaonable) pretenders get randomly assigned to the other players.

I LIKE this one. It's better (and shorter, and more directly self-policing)

---

Hmmm I better stay out of this. My pretenders are very specific toward boosting certain tactics and strategys. They are sure to be viewed as "stinkers" by most players. turning "stinkers" into a surprise is kindof the definition of my style.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
If you're not interested in actually LOSING, the GK's higher defense value will keep him alive where the VQ would probably bite the dust.

It won't help against curse + tramplers, which will quickly render any ghost king an afflicted mess.

[Stormbinder]

GK is fine Norfleet. Sure, it's a good SC, but so are many other pretenders. The most important difference between him and VQ is obviously immortality. Your argument "ok, but for VQ death is still unconvinient because you lose the battle" doesn't hold any water, and I think you know it yourself.


I was mostly staying away from this arguments, but to add my two cents:

Yes, VQ is a bit too powerfull in my opinion. Surely, it can be defeated, but that's not the point as somebody else already said here. The point is that it is significantly more powerfull than any other none-nation specific SC pretenders, and that's why there are so many of them in MP games.

It is not game-wreaking type of unbalance for me, but I certanly wouldn't mind if it would be toned down a bit, like leaving her stats the same but changing cost of additional magic pathes to 80 for example. That would make it significantly
more expensive to make standart run-off-the-mill "air2/earth3/water2" VQ.