Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN

[Lord_Bob]

Oh before this I was upset that a 90 Gold Astral-1 mage could magic duel to death a 450 gold capital only Nagarashi.

But quite frankly this is much, much, worse.

[Evilhomer]

In this instance I do agree with bob, such a test would prove almost nothing.

[Shovah32]

Well I don't think I've ever heard someone claim that bandar log was a rush nation but sounds like a fun match.

I should be free tomorrow if you don't find an opponent by then(or even if you do). I almost never blitz and am not exactly a great player but I find it hard to turn down a game.

[Lord_Bob]

No doubt that will make it even easier for MA Bandar Log to beat MA Man.

I would like to point out that my choices are not cheap in any way. I did not pick Patala, and I did not pick MA Van. I am also not going to use a bless, at all.

Those are very reasonable terms.

[Ironhawk]

LOL

This is the most absurd discussion I've seen on the forums in some time.

[Baalz]

Whooo, seems like some strong opinions here. Not to beat a dead horse, but PD strength is a characteristic of a nation which you plan around. Some nations have crappy PD, I doubt anyone would argue that the monkeys are one of them, this is hardly a insurmountable disadvantage. Some nations have their only good troops cap only, some have old mages, some have dominions with potentially negative effect (disease, insanity, death), some have high resource requirements, some have cold blooded/undead/demonic/aquatic only/no archer/low magic versatility/low MR weaknesses...these are all things you plan around. Several people have offered ways to compensate for weak PD, there are also others if you're clever. Suffice it to say small raiding parties are hardly an unbeatable strategy to use against Bandar Log and I don't consider them weak at all.

[Lord_Bob]

Repeating the revelant comparison with other races "weak" PD:
PD serves one purpose, and one purpose alone. It stops you from having to chase mageless, indie, mini-armies all around your empire. That is the only purpose for which it exists. The giants and Man's PD is QUITE CAPABLE of defeating a 200 gold raiding force at 20.

This is what is going to happen to the "awesome" 17 Indie Archer/1 Indie Commander raiding force against the "lousy" Giant PD. The Giants 2 commanders and 10 Giant Militia are going to take arrow fire and then reach the archers. They are then going to swing. At which point many, many archers will die. The Indie Archers with a morale of 7(-1 Dominion Penalty) are then probably going to route. At that point the giants will run them down and kill every one of them. The Commander will probably get away.

The Giant PD really sucks.

Oh yeah, EA Caleum is going to be PAWNED! By them 17 Indie Archers. They got some fliers, and you see, them fliers going to "stupidly charge" them archers and route them before the archers fire one shot. Them EA Caleum PD is OWNED by them Archers. COMPLETE PAWNAGE!

There is bad, and then there is hidiously ridiclious.

I can't even believe people are talking about Man PD. I have used 65 Man PD, backed by research mages and some longbowman and castle guards to repel 2 waves of 400 man armies backed by multiple mages from EA Ermor in the multiplayer game where I took over a messed up MA Man on some turn. MA Man PD is hidiously more powerfull than Ape PD. It is just plain mighty after 20.

[NTJedi]

Huzurdaddi said:
Everyone also gets: Dominions is a very complex game with a vast number of tactical and strategic options.

However, the above two being true does not mean that Lord Bob is incorrect. As a matter of fact he is correct in that money PD is comically bad.

This is why a new strategy could be introduced for DOM_4 which allowed PD to be upgraded. This would add another layer of depth.
Seems only feasible a nation should have the option to improve its province defence. Considering the pretender controls the nation and all aspects of war... the pretender should have the power to order/research/purchase/etc ways of improving province defence.

{{The PD Story}}

Machaka Pretender, "Give me a report on our research progress!"
Arch_Sorceror, "We've finished learning the last of the spells and the last two enemies should be dead within the week."
Machaka Pretender, "Excellent... have them all move to the front as quickly as possible."
...small pause...
Machaka Pretender, "Give me a report on our income status!"
Elder Bane_Spider, "Our income is safely in the thousands with a little extra stored for an unexpected Utterdark yet our front line indicates it's unlikely."
Machaka Pretender, "Excellent... start having half of all money set aside for creating a personal temple of gold later."
Elder Bane_Spider, "Yes, anything my master."
...small pause...
Machaka Pretender, "Improve the body armor of our province defence and change their weapons from spears to long swords."
SC_Hunter_Lord, "Sorry we can't do that... they are part of a union and no changes for negotiations will occur for another 200 years."
Machaka Pretender, "What the FUDGE? I can call demons and devils from hell, mindlessly send you or anyone in my nation to death, cast globals altering weather and health of the realm BUT I can't improve our province defence!!"
SC_Hunter_Lord, "Yes that is correct... it's that same union which forces us to flee battles at 5pm(50_turns_autoretreat)"
Machaka Pretender, "What about after I'm officially granted godhood?"
SC_Hunter_Lord, "It's my understanding as god of the realm you'll be allowed to talk with union representatives once a month. Just don't piss them off!! That's how the realms last god died."

[HJFudge]

Is this still being talked about?

So they have horribly bad PD. Dont buy any. Surely you do not believe that PD is the only useful way to stop from having to chase mageless, indie, mini-armies.

Yeah you might have to micromanage a bit more each turn and yeah a raiding force who gets in can be annoying, but its not like 1 raiding force is really gonna turn a game around if your busy smushing all the opponents stand up armies.

[thejeff]

Lord_Bob said:
So you are now comparing priest and gem summons with spending 200 gold(whenever you want, the turn before the attack is just fine) for maintenance PD? Are we even having this discussion?

I was comparing with the Lankan example you'd given. Should have quoted, given the flood of posts here.

Anyway, all these examples are silly. You're talking cheap indy attacks, not flying or stealthy or anything. So you're talking attacks along a hostile border. You don't rely on PD to hold a hostile border. You get choke points, build forts, etc.

Sure if you get blindsided, that crappy PD leaves you vulnerable, but that's what happens when you're taken by surprise. If they get behind your lines, hunt them down and kill them, but strengthen your border too.

When I think of raiders, I think of stealth/fliers and remote attacks. They can easily get into the backfield where you'll have little but PD. Anything that has to cross the front lines shouldn't be able to do so with a handful of indy archers. Garrison the borders. There should be troops able to reinforce any border province within a move or two.