OT: Contact

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
What if there is no universe? What if it is just our minds way of rationalizing the emptiness of our own souls?

At, now your reaching...

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
Oh, a second point...I find that most people don't seem to be able to understand that nothing means nothing and therefore does not have a value. Note that I did not say cannot have a value, but does not have a value. Doesn't have a place to put a value, either. Doesn't have anything, isn't anything, because it's nothing!

Actually, while I was having a little fun with it in my manner of speaking, but that is exactly the point I was trying to make. The universe can be finite and have a distinct border out there somewhere. That doesn't mean there is more space beyond the border as some here have said. It could mean there is simply, well nothing beyond it. But nothing outside the universe does not mean "more space" anymore then the space inside the universe is nothing. Space is not nothing, it's simply the absence of any matter. Nothing on the other hand, is nothing. It's the difference between zero and not having a number at all.

[geoschmo]

I think it's almost a probability given what we know that we will someday find evidence of past life on Mars. It may not happen until we can have a permenant presense on the planet with scientists digging around in the dirt and checking out caves and stuff.

[Narrew]

geoschmo, Nice article, I think we just need a longer time to listen. Also, if we ever move out to space then perhaps there were will be some pure science done to answer these questions.

Phoenix-D, that is why I think it is enjoyable to discuss these things, we just don't know, time will tell even if we are not around to hear the answer.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
This is an interesting mind exersize, but it's not any sort of proof.

I explicitly stated that it was merely part of a proof, not a proof.

For one thing, space is not nothing. It's most definetly something. Saying that space is nothing is like saying that zero is not a number.

Space is nothing. It is empty... space. Yeah... anyways, it is merely the extension of 3 dimensions. It is volume, but that is all. It is the same sort of nothing that the volume inside a box is. I do not mean nothing as in it doesn't exist, just that it is the void in which other things are contained. It is not really something by itself.

The universe is contained inside space. Space is nothing exactly like zero is nothing. No apples and no oranges. Zero. And like zero, if you add more space to the space you have, you still just get the same space. Both are infinite in size.

[Renegade 13]

No you don't end up with the same space. You end up with a greater volume of space. Although, space is considered to be continually expanding, so that volume of space is also proportionately increasing.

[Kamog]

Well, space is expanding in the sense that the galaxies are moving away from each other and therefore matter is spreading out. We don't know whether the empty space itself is expanding or not, right?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
No you don't end up with the same space. You end up with a greater volume of space. Although, space is considered to be continually expanding, so that volume of space is also proportionately increasing.

That was relying on the assumption that space, like 0, is an infinite set...

[dogscoff]

Fyron starts sounding, like, all spaced out... man..:

Space is nothing. It is empty... space ... It is the same sort of nothing that the volume inside a box is...The universe is contained inside space... No apples and no oranges. Zero. And like zero, if you add more space to the space you have, you still just get the same space. Both are infinite in size.

Maybe I'm misreading you or misinterptetting your terminology and I'll just be re-iterating what you just said, but I think i may have to disagree with you here.

As my very limited pop-science oft string theory has it, even a total, absolute vacuum is still made of something. String, probably, hence the silly name of the theory. Anyway, you could imagine that vacuum as a variable with the value of zero mass, which is still a value.

However whatever lies beyond the edges of the universe would not even be made up of string (or whatever that theory was on about) and might therefore be more properly described as a variable with 'null' value- or maybe just not a variable at all.

Now pass me whatever you been smoking F, I want me some 'o that...

[ May 20, 2004, 13:10: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Space is nothing. It is empty... space. Yeah... anyways, it is merely the extension of 3 dimensions. It is volume, but that is all. It is the same sort of nothing that the volume inside a box is. I do not mean nothing as in it doesn't exist, just that it is the void in which other things are contained. It is not really something by itself.

The universe is contained inside space. Space is nothing exactly like zero is nothing. No apples and no oranges. Zero. And like zero, if you add more space to the space you have, you still just get the same space. Both are infinite in size.

I like this anaolgy. Think of the universe as a box. The galaxies and other matter are things in the box. Space is the volume around and between all the stuff. But just like the box, the universe is finite.

Your anaology and the conclusion you derive from it are contradictory. Because the universe is NOT contained inside space. Space is contained inside the universe. Outside of the box(universe) is not more space, because space is inside the box.