OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business - Page 6

Baron Munchausen · #51 August 3rd, 2001, 03:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by LCC:
That stuff would be done by macrocommands invoking system functions through the engine interface "calldown". Depending on the relative address range of a processor, a macrocommand file can be as big as you like and have as many functions in it as needed. Just one of the functions needs to link up to the chain - the one named after the file and the same as the command name that invoked the file.

Shared data storage space is obtained off calls (through calldown) to system functions for memory at runtime, then the address of the data obtained is stored in data structures defined by the macrocommand designer. The address of the structures is placed in ADB entries and pulled out by the ones who need to share data pointed to. Do I really need to explain trivial stuff like this?

IF the tools to do the same sort of programming that you grew accustomed to on the PDP-11 were available for Wind'oohs you'd have a chance of being correct. Once you check into what must actually be used to program in Wind'oohs these days you will realize that there's nothing 'trivial' about programming anymore. "Hello, World" will probably come out to several hundred kbytes on most contemporary MS compilers. Now, if you can find the tools you want in a *IX environment -- not impossible since the *IX systems are much better at preserving 'legacy' software -- and can write a decent program for Gnu/Linux and/or FreeBSD in the style you describe you might have something. Every little bit helps to increase the popularity and power of the free OSes.

Baron Munchausen · #52 August 3rd, 2001, 04:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Miles:
By any chance, was that the 'Trumpet' newsreader?

Miles

No, Trumpet was an Aussie product if I recall. It was very much a "GUI" program too, if only in the MS-DOS style. Mine was a BBS door meant to be used in TTY fashion. Largely a clone of the *IX newsreader 'nn', actually. I was trying to make the Waffle BBS usenet news transport system accessible to Fidonet systems like Opus-CBCS and QBBS. It never quite reached 'official' release stage though. It was working fine but needed lots of "polish" in the user-interface department. My UUCP feed died due to the continuing upheaval at the local university as they tried to modernize their systems. I managed to get a PPP connecton to keep up with my own news reading but never got a regular UUCP flow again & never finished it.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 03 August 2001).]

Atrocities · #53 August 3rd, 2001, 09:48 AM

My god this topic has taken on a life of its own. I am seriously impressed with the subject matter being discussed here.

dogscoff · #54 August 3rd, 2001, 10:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by LCC: **** WITHOUT THOSE THREE WE WOULD BE TEN YEARS INTO THE NEXT GENERATION ALREADY ****

Damn right. Wintel vs The world (particularly the demise of the Amiga) is a story of crap technology/ superior marketing triumphing over superior technology/ crap marketing. Sad really.

Oh, and about the Amiga - yeah, I ran out of blind optimism years ago (in the "dark years" of the Amiga) but I still maintain a glimmer of hope, and I think it's a cause worth supporting. Amiga is a good philosophy as well as a fine system, and when the time comes to support them with my wallet, I'll be there.

I own and use a PC only reluctantly. I bought my current machine because I was broke and it was the cheapest way to get Online. I have upgraded it to 2 or 3 times it's previous capacity, but at a *total* cost of UKP150 (~USD300) at the most. I refuse to invest serious money in PC hardware, because the of the absurd depreciation which has been created by the artificial progress of {BIG NUMBER} PC culture.

As soon as a viable alternative to my PC (ie something good for Space empires and net access) appears within my price range, be it Amiga, Linux, Mac or other I will buy it and pass my PC back into circulation.

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 03 August 2001).]

Atrocities · #55 August 3rd, 2001, 11:33 AM

Its ironic isn't it. Apple Computers got its start because people HATED big companies such as IBM. Now look, nearly everyone has an IBM Compatible PC.

I too have used the Amiga, for video production work. This was back in 92. It served its purpose quite well until we got a new Grass Valley CG. Even then, the Amiga was kept around, and used. To the best of my knowledge, it is STILL being used. (Last year)

I remember when I tried to set up a Linux system. RedHat Linux was a cool thing, and I purchased it. I still have not gotten a Linux system to work. (Way to much work involved) I passed the software along to a friend at work, and he seems to be doing rather well with it. I am happy for him.

As far as Mac's go, they are the most revered systems in Hollywood. In fact, just ask Mike O'oKudda (sp) the graphics effect guy who has worked on Star Trek since 1986 to present. He swares by Mac. And lets not forget the Apple image on the lap top used by the fly man, (and dinasour expert) Jeff Goldbloom, (sp) on the drive into DC in Indpendance Day. If I am not mistaken, that Mac saved the world.

The point is, all of these systems are good. But the industry, and indeed us, have accepted the IBM standard as the norm. And until that standard is broken, much like the Mac Superbowl commerical, its going to be business as usual for the big PC guys.

#56 August 3rd, 2001, 12:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:

Oh I wish I was part of the "latest generation". To know what I know now and to have the Last twenty years back...

I hope you didn't perceive my comments as some sort of flame. Geo

No problem, I should have paid more attention to the poster name - thought you were under 30. I started out programming in the early 70s with punch cards, paper tape and teletypes. Removable disk packs were new tech! Magnetic tape was king. One of the machines I used had DRUM storage. The PDP-8 had magnetic CORE memory.....

I wish I had been born 15 years later, but you know how much time spent wishing things like that is worth...

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 03 August 2001).]

#57 August 3rd, 2001, 12:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Once you check into what must actually be used to program in Wind'oohs these days you will realize that there's nothing 'trivial' about programming anymore.

Someday the monster will die. I am not too old to wait and cheer the return of sanity when that happens. I will NEVER EVER PROGRAM IN WINDOWS. It just feeds the beast when programs use it. If that means I write no programs, as has been the case since my Amiga died, then so be it....

To the younger generation, things CHANGE. Slowly but surely time grinds down even the most powerful, in a free society. Look at IBM and the story of mainframes as an example. I do not know what their market share is now, but the Last time I looked, they sold less than 20% of the world's computers. Well, at one time they sold 85%, having driven dozens of others out of the market, including FAR FAR better products. Just as an example, my university used the best timesharing machine ever built, the Xerox Sigma IX. Fifteen YEARS after Xerox threw in the towel, there were STILL a dozen of them being used by devoted owners who desperately cannibalized dead machines and improvised replacement parts to keep them running. The CPV operating system Xerox developed was ported IIRC to a Honeywell machine and named CP VI to attract former Sigma owners. Of course desktops killed the mainframe concept, but something similar will happen to them as well - handhelds and visors.....

Alpha Kodiak · #58 August 3rd, 2001, 02:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by LCC:
Someday the monster will die. I am not too old to wait and cheer the return of sanity when that happens. I will NEVER EVER PROGRAM IN WINDOWS. It just feeds the beast when programs use it. If that means I write no programs, as has been the case since my Amiga died, then so be it....

To the younger generation, things CHANGE. Slowly but surely time grinds down even the most powerful, in a free society. Look at IBM and the story of mainframes as an example. I do not know what their market share is now, but the Last time I looked, they sold less than 20% of the world's computers. Well, at one time they sold 85%, having driven dozens of others out of the market, including FAR FAR better products. Just as an example, my university used the best timesharing machine ever built, the Xerox Sigma IX. Fifteen YEARS after Xerox threw in the towel, there were STILL a dozen of them being used by devoted owners who desperately cannibalized dead machines and improvised replacement parts to keep them running. The CPV operating system Xerox developed was ported IIRC to a Honeywell machine and named CP VI to attract former Sigma owners. Of course desktops killed the mainframe concept, but something similar will happen to them as well - handhelds and visors.....

Unfortunately, I am not of the younger generation either, but I do develop for Windows, since you have to develop software that people are going to buy. I agree that handhelds and such are going to be a part of the future, but I would not advise waiting for the world to return to what it once was.

The reason for Windows "bloat" is that it provides people with functionality that they want. (I'm talking about the mainstream, not throw-back geeks like us.

) What you're going to see is more "bloat", not less. .NET is going to really shake things up. I'm just starting to see what can be done using XML as a communication medium. I've just managed to drag myself out of a procedural mindset and got used to event-driven software, and they've moved the marker again. Software technology is evolving at an unbelievable rate. I may not like it, but I have to adapt or my family doesn't eat.

#59 August 3rd, 2001, 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
The reason for Windows "bloat" is that it provides people with functionality that they want. (I'm talking about the mainstream, not throw-back geeks like us. ) What you're going to see is more "bloat", not less. .NET is going to really shake things up. I'm just starting to see what can be done using XML as a communication medium. I've just managed to drag myself out of a procedural mindset and got used to event-driven software, and they've moved the marker again. Software technology is evolving at an unbelievable rate. I may not like it, but I have to adapt or my family doesn't eat.

Amiga was doing ALL event driven software in 85. They were also doing concurrent multitasking in multiple windows, which it took ten YEARS for MS to support after they had killed off Amiga and Atari. So you would have had these "advanced" system features on the typical PC 15 YEARS ago without MS. Amiga was the very first machine with a Genlock VCR interface. The list could go on for quite a while. What if ANYTHING did MS do first ??? Check the companies they drove out of business for lost products before you reply.....

geoschmo · #60 August 3rd, 2001, 07:28 PM

quote:
What if ANYTHING did MS do first ???

Uh... turn a profit?

What's your point? Henry Ford didn't invent the car either. There were dozens, maybe hundreds of car companies before the Model T was introduced. All making wonderfully crafted cars that were impractical or impossible to market to anyone but a car nut that was willing and able to spend hours tinkering with them.

I am sure all those little guys moaned that Ford was driving them out of business too, but the fact is the people bought more Model T's because they could afford to buy them, and could afford to own them.

Of course all this doesn't fit your romaticized vision of robber barons and evil super corporations doing back room deals to put people out of business and deprive people of better computers.

But that's cool. You're way makes for better movies.

Geo