upkeep

[tinkthank]

I think that the way their upkeep is set now, things are pretty darn good.
I think Zen got it right the first time: /Summoned Units With Upkeep [e.g. Trolls]/ are good in many situations but not perfect for all.
Let's not go about nerfing this and boosting that just because of a particular style.
We all *want* the fully automatic buckshot laser-guided neutron plasma uzi with the self-regenerating 80gig clip, but that would make the game a lot less sexy as everyone would just go out and get one.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Boron:
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?

I don't think this is really fair, since you've ignored the recruitment cost of the mages in question, which, over a short duration of time, makes up a significant fraction of the cost. Plus, the level of pummelling inflicted by 33 mystics varies from immense to irrelevant, depending on the level of research with which you're making this comparison.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boron:
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?

I don't think this is really fair, since you've ignored the recruitment cost of the mages in question, which, over a short duration of time, makes up a significant fraction of the cost. Plus, the level of pummelling inflicted by 33 mystics varies from immense to irrelevant, depending on the level of research with which you're making this comparison.

---

that are some good points . arco is a bad example since it's hard for them to summon mass vine ogres .
but if you reach conjuration 6 to summon trolls your opponents which summon vine ogres e.g. have most likely reached conjuration 3 meanwhile + at least to lvl 3-4 in either evocation / alteration or traumaturgy where their short run most useful combat spells are .
so the mages can do pretty amounts of damage .
but my neglecting of the recruit costs was a fault for normal maps that's totally true .
but it's not too hazardous i think if i say you can have at least 5 combat mages for the saved upkeep with your vine ogres then .
so they will be at least a difficult opponent to the trolls but more likely even win .

finally i say it once more since it was mostly ignored in my previous statements my thoughts are primarily for the faerun map .
on the other maps like aran / desert eye the upkeep aspects / long run aspects are quite negligible but on faerun you surely will beat some of your close neighbors but if you keep to that tactic for lategame it is a burden for you .

if you can manage to kill the trolls in suicide attacks after 5-10 turns but keep your troll kings it's most likely ok but if you keep them longer you will notice your unneeded additional upkeep badly .

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Boron:
if you can manage to kill the trolls in suicide attacks after 5-10 turns but keep your troll kings it's most likely ok but if you keep them longer you will notice your unneeded additional upkeep badly .

Hmmm, Sea Trolls cost 50, regular Trolls cost 60. That's about the price of a Knight - eg, 60 for Man, 70 for Ulm. Compared to the Trolls, the knights' upkeep are similar or slightly higher.

So from what you say I have to conclude you either don't recruit knights when one of these nations, or if you do you try to suicide them at the first opportunity.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
You need LEVEL_6 Conjuration... that's not early.

OK, that's not very early. But as I've told before, Trolls are a midgame summon, and one of their benefits is they are usually available earlier than most upkeep-free summon which are equivalent in power.

Also Vine Ogres are ready at level_3 where it's possible to get 2 or more per gem... plus they don't have upkeep and won't retreat like Trolls.

I think Vine Ogres are plain OK for their casting requirements. But they suffer from a few liabilities the Trolls don't have. Anyway that kind of comparisons is somewhat pointless: if I have nature gems and nature mages, I'll use Vine Ogres. If I have water gems and water mages I'll summon Sea Trolls. If I have death gems and necromancers I'll enchant Pale Riders. You have to do with what is available to you.

If you're looking for a better deal for a mass of units all at once it's the pale riders. The pale riders LEVEL_5 Enchantment, zero upkeep, cheaper per gem, won't flee like trolls, faster then trolls, and more resistances.

Same remark as above. I don't agree with the 'LH have more resistances', OFC. Both Trolls have 4 more MR and can't be banished. Sea Trolls and LHs have the same elemental resistances. Regular Trolls haven't poison resistance and are fire susceptible, anyway you won't kill Trolls thru poison alone because of their regen, and it's still easier to kill masses of LHs with fire spells than a single Troll. Even Incinerate will leave him with some HPs left.

Also both vine ogres and longdead horsemen don't eat. So if you're popping out 10 trolls/per turn I could match this with at least 15 vine ogres/per turn.

And with what will you match my own Vine Ogres? I don't use Trolls as a replacement to something else I could otherwise summon. I use them when they're available and have the gems and mages to summon them, and when these mages haven't anything better to do. I think I emphasized this enough, I hope it's crystal clear now.

unless your opponent has over a dozen priests waiting.

Yep, being mindless or undead is sometimes a liability, but there's no obvious way to kill a Troll.

Also more importantly even if you do have lots of successful armies of trolls... the upkeep will hurt even after 10 turns it's 600 gold for just 15 Trolls. The longdead riders and ogre vines cost nothing and won't retreat either.

Rout is preferable to dissolution.

So far it seems your only gripe against Trolls is their upkeep, not their stats. So I guess you don't recruit anything but mages once you have access to upkeep-free summons?

[ July 15, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by NTJedi:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So basically your point is Trolls should be changed because of special rules or alliances you use only on XL maps? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow.

That's not what I've been writing... my point is that trolls have an upkeep which doesn't match their true value.

---

Well, more precisely the point we were discussing here was that you though Trolls are OK on small maps but a burden on XL maps due to their upkeep - which is also true of many expensive national troops, BTW - Jotuns, knights, Minotaurs, you name it.

Anyway I give up - let's say you won that one round.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Rout is preferable to dissolution.

Not when it comes to Trolls. If Trolls rout, they're now scattered across 4 or 5 provinces and have to be laboriously rounded up, or abandoned. Either way, you lose a lot of upkeep.

If they're slaughtered to the Last, you get to keep the king, and stop paying the upkeep on the trolls.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Rout is preferable to dissolution.

Not when it comes to Trolls. If Trolls rout, they're now scattered across 4 or 5 provinces and have to be laboriously rounded up,

---

These 4 or 5 province could be only 1 or 2.

3 would be a more common figure. No big deal, really.

or abandoned. Either way, you lose a lot of upkeep.

That's a gross exageration. You lose a few upkeep. And you save on the gems and mage time the Vine Ogres Users will have to spend to summon replacements for their dissolved Vine army.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
That's a gross exageration. You lose a few upkeep. And you save on the gems and mage time the Vine Ogres Users will have to spend to summon replacements for their dissolved Vine army.

Yes, but you see, it's a GOOD thing for the trolls to die off. Once enough of them die, you can afford to summon another Sea King's Court, abuse the trolls, and keep the Sea King to generate gems in perpetuity. Win/win.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So from what you say I have to conclude you either don't recruit knights when one of these nations, or if you do you try to suicide them at the first opportunity.

I usually don't bother to recruit very many knights, as they do tend to be overly expensive for the combat ability they give you. I also don't spend water and earth gems to recruit knights. The problem is that you pay gems for them, then continue to pay for them in gold, which means that in many cases you would have been better off to have used your gems for something else.