What it will take for me to purchase Dom III

[quantum_mechani]

Graeme Dice said:

Sure, but you'll have more than three times as many troops, so you can hit your opponent in more places than he can defend.

The real solution, however, is to play multiple games on small maps, instead of a single game on a massive map.

That is always my recommendation, more blitz games.

[RedRover]

Having read and considered the posts so far, here are a few more thoughts:


1) Generally I like the idea of some sort of additional cost for summoned units. The more variety in how the costs are configured, the better.


2) On the idea of gem availability, how about the following?

Make gems “sticky” and mages “grabby.” Each turn, all mages in labs fill to a personal limit before any gems go into the general pool.

Say the limit is one gem per level per path. The “pool gem” command ignores these gems. Unless you want to shift them manually, they are used only for tactical combat or a few special orders like Blood Sacrifice. Maybe allow a “sticky on/sticky off” toggle.


3) Give gem-producing items a “shelf life” of 20 gems.

After that, the device fails and is automatically discarded, even if cursed. Basically make some sort of #maxeffects mod code for items. (This makes gem-producing entities correspondingly more valuable.)


4) One idea to limit the “free troop” aspect of summons would be to stress the caster more.

Say a summons costs 1 hit point per two spell levels (round down) that never comes back.

So a 10 hp mage casting a 5th level summons loses 2 hit points that cannot be restored by any means. A fifth summon of this type would be fatal to that mage, and you probably wouldn't want to commit the mage to battle after the second or third such summons.

Likewise, leaders that summon magical being allies might lose a hit point or more per creature summoned—this represents the loss of personal vitality as it is transferred to activate the ally. The exact number might vary according to the creature summoned.

If this doesn't go into Dom3 proper, maybe the modding commands might allow for its incorporation for purposes of further testing.


5) Start certain summoned creatures with experience levels and adjust their base stats so there is effectively no change in their initial numbers.

For example, the Arch Devils might already be at 5 experience levels—further experience for them is irrelevant. Maybe the Draconians summoned starts at 2-3.


6) Limit ritual summoning spells to one per laboratory per turn, in the same way that Blood Sacrifice is limited to one per temple.

[This is the idea I'd most like to test.]


7) Maybe make resources a little easier to come by.

Allow Alchemy to produce Resources from Earth gems as well—maybe 5 resource points at that location per gem. These would, of course, have to be used or they go away.


On empowering national troops with magic abilities.
I’m not sure I like the idea of giving troops intrinsic magical special abilities (such as fire resistance or regeneration). That’s too much like magical crossbreeding, IMO.

I think that the option to equip entire units with magical weapons and armor of various types is worth investigating, though.


On a 250%-300% income increase:
This looks like an interesting idea to me. The mad castling issue can be dealt with simply by increasing the cost of castles and other structures in direct proportion to the income increase.

Other adjustments might be needed, though—for example, province supply capacity might have to be increased, as might the supply effects of Nature magic and certain magic items.


On "blitz" games
Advice to play more blitz doesn't really solve anything, IMO. Also, some of us like the 80-to-100-turn solo games, and desire to have a better time with them.

[Endoperez]

I heavily snipped this post, and only answered to things I disagreed with or would like to see made differently. I agreed in some of the things I snipped, but not with everything, and I don't know what to think of the rest of them yet.

RedRover said:
Having read and considered the posts so far, here are a few more thoughts:


4) One idea to limit the “free troop” aspect of summons would be to stress the caster more.

Say a summons costs 1 hit point per two spell levels (round down) that never comes back.

So a 10 hp mage casting a 5th level summons loses 2 hit points that cannot be restored by any means. A fifth summon of this type would be fatal to that mage, and you probably wouldn't want to commit the mage to battle after the second or third such summons.

Likewise, leaders that summon magical being allies might lose a hit point or more per creature summoned—this represents the loss of personal vitality as it is transferred to activate the ally. The exact number might vary according to the creature summoned.

If this doesn't go into Dom3 proper, maybe the modding commands might allow for its incorporation for purposes of further testing.

The idea is interesting, but at least leading magical creatures shouldn't have an effect of that kind. That would force one to have more commanders with high hps that are able to lead magical units, which would mean summons, and actually make summons (especially commanders) MORE valuable and common.

Also, instead of "damage", maybe the summons caused "fatique" (increased encumberance instead of lowered hp).

5) Start certain summoned creatures with experience levels and adjust their base stats so there is effectively no change in their initial numbers.

For example, the Arch Devils might already be at 5 experience levels—further experience for them is irrelevant. Maybe the Draconians summoned starts at 2-3.

I'm for this. It nerfs the skilled summons a little, but I don't mind that in this case...

6) Limit ritual summoning spells to one per laboratory per turn, in the same way that Blood Sacrifice is limited to one per temple.

[This is the idea I'd most like to test.]

I don't know if it would work. I think one is too slow a number. It would affect undead themes of Ermor dramatically, as they would be limited in the number of commanders they can summon, and don't have the money to build (huge numbers of) labs. But yes, it would be something I'd like to test. It would make for a really interesting alternate rule, but might make powerful summons and SCs even more important as you can't match Quality with Quantity.

7) Maybe make resources a little easier to come by.

Allow Alchemy to produce Resources from Earth gems as well—maybe 5 resource points at that location per gem. These would, of course, have to be used or they go away.

VERY good idea, but there should be more than 5 resources. I quess 15 could work. It allows you to recruit one med-to-high infantry instead of militia, and (quite often) one med-to-high cavalry instead of med-to-high infantry. It couldn't, of course, be economical, but it would allow one to "burn" gems to speed up starting progress.

On a 250%-300% income increase:
This looks like an interesting idea to me. The mad castling issue can be dealt with simply by increasing the cost of castles and other structures in direct proportion to the income increase.

Other adjustments might be needed, though—for example, province supply capacity might have to be increased, as might the supply effects of Nature magic and certain magic items.

The supply effects can't be increased, but are unchanged from Dom:PPP, and it had twice the gold of DomII. Castle/building prices can't be changed yet, but might be in DomIII. The scales' effects and the general richness (in gold, resources, food...) can be modded even now. Zen's Complete Balance mods includes a Scale mod, and Saber Cherry released a scale mod as well. I'm not sure whether they aim for gameplay balance or useful national units.

[quantum_mechani]

RedRover said:

On a 250%-300% income increase:
This looks like an interesting idea to me. The mad castling issue can be dealt with simply by increasing the cost of castles and other structures in direct proportion to the income increase.

Other adjustments might be needed, though—for example, province supply capacity might have to be increased, as might the supply effects of Nature magic and certain magic items.


On "blitz" games
Advice to play more blitz doesn't really solve anything, IMO. Also, some of us like the 80-to-100-turn solo games, and desire to have a better time with them.

The other problem with the income idea is it makes the cheaper mages mostly obsolete.

And why don't blitz games solve anything? Certainly everyone can agree that it would be ideal if long term games remained diverse and interesting for many games (and I have high hopes for this in dom3), but in the meantime there is no reason to ignore a game type that to a large degree avoids the problems.

[RedRover]

Endoperez: Thanks for the response and analysis. I could use some clarification on a point or two.

"Leading magical creatures." Do you mean "most powerful magical creatures" or "magical creature Leaders"?

In my post, "leading" doesn't cost anything, "summoning" does. I expect the effect would be that this would divide the casters involved with summoned creatures into two categories--the slowly dying summoners and the magic-wielding field commanders who don't summon because that would gut their battlefield usefulness. Putting together a combination to yield a viable summoned field force would be a greater strain on resources than the current setup.

I can't see this as doing anything but slowing down the process of accumulating a game-winning mass of summoned troops.

Also, if you are burning through a major leader like an Air Queen in a multiplayer game, you risk not being able to get it back via resummoning when it dies if the other players are actively pursuing it.

If your resources are limited, this configuration gives you a basic strategic choice of whether to use a tough magic leader to summon or to fight. If you fight, it cuts down on the number of summoned units in play. If you summon a lot and are attacked, your combined group will be more vulnerable than currently, and you run the risk of losing an important battle because the leader is easier to kill.

Fatigue: I'm not certain how using fatigue would work. Most of the time when I use summons, these take place in a comparatively safe laboratory a turn or more from the action. If the fatigue effect is temporary, it's gone by the time the troops get into action. If the effect is permanent, then it would build up too fast, IMO, rendering the caster useless very quickly.

I could see fatigue being a function of leadership rather than summoning. In other words, if the fatigue effect is based on the number of magical beings led as some function of the leader's capacity for leading them, it might work.

Say 1-25% capacity = +1 encumbrance
26-50% = +2 encumbrance
51-75% = +3 encumbrance
76-100%= +4 encumbrance
These might double with armor, as with spell fatigue.

On Lab Limits
Good criticism on this point. If coding Dom3, there may be an easy fix. Some options:

1)Code two Labs:

Lab1: Unlimited summons. This configuration is assigned to the undead themes.

Lab2: One summon per turn. This configuration is assigned to other themes

2) Give undead themes cheaper labs.

3) Define a new structure "Shrine" which is enabled for undead themes only. This is a cheap structure whose only function is to enable undead summoning by an undead leader. Like a Temple, a Shrine is automatically destroyed by enemy troops. A shrine only enables one summoning, but can be constructed in the same province as a lab.

(BTW, just as a side note, I'm assuming this is a Dom3 discussion, so the possibility of applying any of these to Dom2 isn't on my radar screen.)

Cost and Supply
Was unaware of the Dom1 connection. At this point, I'm out of my depth--I never had the opportunity to play Dom1. I think a continuation of this part of the discussion by those who have might be instructive. Did reducing the gold of Dom1 improve Dom2--or did it just push the pendulum from ground troops to magic troops?



Quantum_Mech:

Cheaper Mages: I don't see why cheaper mages should become obsolete. Costs are mutable and relative. You could keep an equivalent effect by adjusting the costs. Yes, rebalancing would require additional time, and whether the use of developer time to do it would be cost effective is a viable concern. But the idea does not in itself render the concept of the cheap mage obsolete, IMO.

Blitz Games: I was unclear. Blitz games as a temporary patch for the situation for Dom2 is a great idea. We are better off for your having brought it up. Anyone who hasn't played blitz is missing a significant part of the Dom2 experience, and should be encouraged to sample it.

What I meant to say was that a patch for current Dom2 play is of limited utility in discussion about what might happen in Dom3. I just wanted to steer discussion back to an element that could use some help as Dom3 is being put together, and I'm happy that we are in agreement that the longer game could use some tweaks.

So, thanks for bringing up the point. I hope someone reading the thread benefits from it while we are waiting for Dom3.

[Endoperez]

RedRover said:
Cost and Supply
Was unaware of the Dom1 connection. At this point, I'm out of my depth--I never had the opportunity to play Dom1. I think a continuation of this part of the discussion by those who have might be instructive. Did reducing the gold of Dom1 improve Dom2--or did it just push the pendulum from ground troops to magic troops?

I'm not very good at balancing, or finding out the balance, or optimizing my strategy. However, I think it has been mentioned that in Dom:PPP, players bought just as many mages and summoned just as many units, but used the leftover money on troops. Troops made a difference, because you could get them without losing anything. They didn't have to be cost-effective, because the cost was mostly irrelevant.

I'm not sure how correct this memory of mine is.

[Arralen]

cost & supply

Was unaware of the Dom1 connection. At this point, I'm out of my depth--I never had the opportunity to play Dom1. I think a continuation of this part of the discussion by those who have might be instructive. Did reducing the gold of Dom1 improve Dom2--or did it just push the pendulum from ground troops to magic troops?

Do the math yourself:
- the sites didn't change (much)
- gold 'production' was halved
- ... and seemingly no-one really noticed: the province sizes where heavily reduced; while pop range was 5k-50k in DomPPP, now we have 500..15k pop

And taking away a strategic/tactical option is never good IMHO...

[Endoperez]

What kind of population randomization would be better? As the whole province/terrain system was changed for DomII, that changing of population numbers might have been accidental. Now provinces can be Small or Large, and (Plains or Underwater) or any combination of Forest/Farmlands/Mountain/Swamp/Waste. Large Farmlands could be up to 50 000 range, but what about Small Farmlands? Or Large Forest/Swamps? Would each terrain hold a multiplier (e.g., being a Farm gives 2.0 times the population, being a Swmap gives 0.5 times the population, Farm/Swamp has (2.0*0.5= 1) about the same population a plains would have.

[Arralen]

.. oh, great, forum ate a lengthy post of mine again.. so I'll keep it short this time:

Large Farmland: av. 18782pop, max 21.5k pop
Normal Farmland: av. 121250 pop, max. 14.4k pop
Small Farmland: av. 5557 pop, max. 7.2k pop

=> "Large" is +50% pop, "Small" is -50%

Normal Plains: av. 7921 pop, max. 9.1k pop

=> "Farm" is +50% pop

I'll add more numbers as I get to it ... .


And if that was a question, Endo, ye, those modifiers are cumulative. So with a small swamp/waste province you can get really ridiculous low pop levels..

What we can see from the above is - there's no way to get near the pop numbers of DomPPP, and something like that should only occure deliberatly .. should have been very obvious in the very first test game at the latest.

And check the maps which come with the game - lots of 'normal plains' and worse provinces. No, I don't think the devs ruined the gold economy by accident. Very much like they didn't overlook that there are no events which generate pop, but many which kill it. It's their/the games attitude.

What gets me back to the topic:
I don't like that. As I don't like the fact that the AI still cannot build castles and commanders from sites, chooses heavy death scale to often and has no clue about supplies - therefore crippling itself very effectivly. What I don't like even more is the fact, that the devs know about this very well but are not willing to fix it ... .
What that tells about me purchasing DOM3? Oh well, guess yourself ...

edit: typo

[Zen]

Arralen said:
What gets me back to the topic:
I don't like that. As I don't like the fact that the AI still cannot build castles and commanders from sites, chooses heavy death scale to often and has no clue about supplies - therefore crippling itself very effectivly. What I don't like even more is the fact, that the devs know about this very well but are not willing to fix it ... .
What that tells about me purchasing DOM3? Oh well, guess yourself ...

edit: typo

Interesting and incredibly close-minded thought.