The Bogarus Problem

[Micah]

K- Seriously, no matter how many times you say it taking an SC pretender does not in fact hurt your gold or (generally) even resource availability in the first year.

Your statement that the 6 starets that you start buying on turn 7 after getting exarchs will somehow make up for not having 12 starets by starting to buy them on turn 1 is also nonsensical.

Exarchs can't have bodyguards without additional equipment. Having enough research, gems and forge turns to have teleport, battle magic and a fleet of flying carpets on turn 17 after you recruit 6 exarchs to start seems unlikely.

There's nothing at all stopping you from getting some smiters when you have an SC if you have to, but passing up starets for exarchs is a pretty short-term strategy given the amazing research potential of the starets.

Jim- Given the lack of evidence I'm gonna have to go with the opinions of MP vets that have some wins under their belt until some other strat proves effective in a competitive MP setting. Let me know when you substantiate your claims of scalemonsters being the way to go.

[JimMorrison]

Micah said:
Jim- Given the lack of evidence I'm gonna have to go with the opinions of MP vets that have some wins under their belt until some other strat proves effective in a competitive MP setting. Let me know when you substantiate your claims of scalemonsters being the way to go.

I'm not proposing one strategy is significantly better than another. I am simply arguing that there is no concrete evidence that one strategy is significantly better than another. They all have their weaknesses, which I think I have shown adequately. Obviously if you want to take my assertions as claims that an awake SC is an invalid strat, then you are free to denounce me as not experienced enough to take part in the discussion - but to do so, is simply to sidestep what I am even trying to express.

[Ming]

K,

Thank you for your reply and free advice.

For your information, I have played test games against the AI using both strategies (eparch and awake pretender) and find the latter to be superior (and NOT just because it is better against the AI). Nevertheless, in deference to your ability (I can tell from your comments in other threads that you are a good and experienced player – certainly more than semi-competent!) I shall take another look and reserve my judgment. Our differences seem minor and might be no more than player preference anyway. i.e. both strategies requires compromises and it is a question of which is a better compromise.

I should, however, point out a couple of points that you seem to have overlooked in your comments:

Taking an awake pretender can still leave enough points to get good scales – the only significant trade-off is production vs sloth. The value of production diminishes over time. So in this respect you are not getting much lasting value by not choosing an awake pretender. Alternately you could invest the points in magic paths, but Bogarus’ recruitable mages already provide sufficient magic ability, so again the trade-off for taking an awake pretender is not that great.

Giving up 5-6 turns of staret recruitment in the beginning IS a major handicap. Sure you could catch-up, but you would otherwise be way ahead! What do you gain in return? Extra design points that might not make a major difference – AND your early expansion would still be slower than with an awake pretender.

Finally, using an awake pretender gives you more flexibility, not less, in the early game. With an awake pretender, you can still recruit eparchs if the situation still calls for it. Without an awake pretender, you will not have the option of calling for its help.

Anyway, as I said, I shall take another look instead of debating this further.

[Ming]

Micah,

You have beaten me in stating most of my points and put it far more succinctly than I could have.

[Renojustin]

JimMorrison said:

Because as of today, 100% of awake SCs, and 100% of imprisoned scales/magic pretenders have met with failure in MP games.

Until you can substantiate a particular strategy as being victorious (sorry Kuritza, not my intent to be rude), then there all of our evidence leads to loss of the game so far. 100% results are not anecdotal.

Kuritza said:
I've won a VP MP game with Bogarus, in Russian community though. With an awake Wyrm. I dont think Bogarus is any good without an SC God.

[K]

Micah said:
K- Seriously, no matter how many times you say it taking an SC pretender does not in fact hurt your gold or (generally) even resource availability in the first year.

Uh, so an Awake SC God is worth what.... maybe one province a turn for 10 turns before you hit serious opposition? So, if you can make an extra army early who is capable of doing that, then the effect is exact same.

Seriously, the Smiter strategy works as well as having an SC but you don't have to kill your longterm game to do it. I don't know why people resist the idea.

Micah said:
Your statement that the 6 starets that you start buying on turn 7 after getting exarchs will somehow make up for not having 12 starets by starting to buy them on turn 1 is also nonsensical.

Starets are pretty expensive. With your bad scales and SC god, you won't be able to afford them for long.

SC gods are a short-term strategy, but good scales pay off in both the short term and the long.

Micah said:
Exarchs can't have bodyguards without additional equipment. Having enough research, gems and forge turns to have teleport, battle magic and a fleet of flying carpets on turn 17 after you recruit 6 exarchs to start seems unlikely.

There's nothing at all stopping you from getting some smiters when you have an SC if you have to, but passing up starets for exarchs is a pretty short-term strategy given the amazing research potential of the starets.

Great research means nothing if you don't have the troops to protect your mages. Good scales provide troops, and an SC God is just an investment that ends the instant that someone drops a Thaum 4 Vengeance of the Dead onto him or gets a Fear-based Assassin to cause him to route during an Assassination attempt.

Lets not also forget that a big research bulge and small army bulge makes you a target for other players.

And on a final note, are you seriously trying to tell me that Con4(Carpets of Flying) and Thaum3(Teleport) are not doable by turn 16 with Bogarus? Seriously? Maybe you won't have the gems and need to go cheap with Boots of Flying so that your eparch gets mapmove 2, but the ability to do it is unquestioned. Run a quick test and see for yourself how easy it can be.

[JimMorrison]

I suppose we disagree on the definition of the word "substantiate".

I'm out though, I somehow doubt I am the only one getting aggravated by this discussion.

[Renojustin]

Kuritza said:

Well, you were LA Rlyeh, and that DOES count...
And Bogarus had some weird pretender, like Vampire queen with just blood and death if my memory serves me right. In other words, not a SC pretender.

R'lyeh doesn't have a great army either, and that's what I used. I did not see Bogarus's pretender. The point being that an average army (if that) was able to dominate Bogarus without an awake pretender extremely easily going into turn 10, before R'lyeh Dominion effects even came into play.

[Micah]

Jim- The evidence is the weight of people's experience and educated guesses. You can't say that an imprisoned magicless pretender with LA Ermor and maxed scales isn't a disproven strategy because no one's tried it yet. Obviously it isn't a good strategy.

I haven't seen a thing in this thread that would make me think about NOT taking an SC with Bogarus when I play them in a normal dominions game situation, so I disagree with your assertion that you've adequately shown that another strategy might be better. Yes, it's hardly an instant-win formula, but it sure as heck is the best option you've got IMO.

If you really want those production scales just take a PoD, you've got the points to go O3/P3/C3/G1/Misf2/Magic1 with dom9 and D4. Those are pretty excellent scales, especially with the cold preference.

[Renojustin]

JimMorrison said:
I suppose we disagree on the definition of the word "substantiate".

I'm out though, I somehow doubt I am the only one getting aggravated by this discussion.

Doubting someone's word on something like that is definitely insulting. I mean, it's not like he claimed he had a girlfriend or something. We're not in middle school here.