The problem of low hit points on humans

[Endoperez]

Hullu said:
The smaller it is, the easier it is to kill. I'd BET there's differences of hundreds of percentages when it comes to survibability from trauma when it comes to humans. Actually no need to bet on that, everyone knows that.

Actually, you defined natural protection in there. While being big might have that effect in real life, having natural protection 5 would have the same effect in Dominions world. Cutting your throat still kills you, but one hit won't do it. If the arrow to the chest was a crossbow bolt, instead, the big guy would still die.

[Hullu]

Endoperez said:
Actually, you defined natural protection in there. While being big might have that effect in real life, having natural protection 5 would have the same effect in Dominions world. Cutting your throat still kills you, but one hit won't do it. If the arrow to the chest was a crossbow bolt, instead, the big guy would still die.

Then why do giants not die to a single hit. Aren't they just big humans by all means?

If big humans equal small humans, why not REALLY BIG HUMANS aka giants don't equal any humans? The logic just doesn't stand. With that logic giants would have 10hp, but have enormously bigger protection value.

[Endoperez]

There are no giants in Dominions that'd be JUST bigger humans.

Firbolgs probably come closest, and they have 26 hp and 17 str, as well as nat. protection 2.
Cavemen have 23 hp, 17 str, but cold/heat resistance and lower magic resistance. And natural protection 2.
Jotun seem to have 32 or so hp, 21 or so str and natural protection 5.

However, I doubt you meant big humans in the size 3-4 sense. I, at least, understood you meant a big human in an Ulmish warrior, the best of the best, with natural talent for killing without being killed, burly and strong and not really slowed down by his mass. Your examples made it sound as if he had natural protection instead of more hp. I'll write down some numbers and compare things:

A tough human using a spear:
11 str, 3 dam from weapon == 14 damage per hit

A tough guy A being hit by the said spear:
18 hp
A tough guy B being hit by the said spear:
12 hp, nat prot 5

A) would take 14 damage (out of 18 hp), and could easily die from the first straight hit.
B) would take 9 damage (out of 12 hp), and could easily die from the first straight hit. But, as you can see, the increase in hp and in nat prot have about the same effect.

If the attacker had better weapon, both A and B would probably die.

Now, let's give misters A and B some light armor. Leather Cuirass and Cap, say. Protection 6 for body and head for Guy A, prot 10* for Guy B.

Guy A would take 14-6 or 8 points of damage, out of his 18. Half of his hp before random factor.
Guy B would take 14-10 or 4 points of damage - a third of his 12! Random factor would have a slightly bigger effect here.

If they had better protection, like, say, Plate Cuirass (14) and Iron Cap (15), like a hero-type might have in MA or LA...

With 14 dam attack, Guy A would take about 0 damage, but with the randoms he would still rack up damage pretty fast, few points at a time, with his protection being only 14/15.
Guy B would have 17 body, 18 head protection (rounded down), so he'd be much less likely to get actually damaged.

If the attacker had a better weapon, and dealt 16 damage... Guy A would be taking damage almost every turn. Guy B would often take a point or two, sometimes a little more, but more than that would be uncommon. I'm not going through that math right now, so let's say they're about equal.

If both had armor with prot 20/20... Guy A would be better off against most guys. Guy B would have actual prot 22.5 (22 or 23, I'm not sure), and the difference wouldn't be that important at this point, as the biggest danger would be armor-piercing and negating attacks, like crossbows and spells.


With no armor, more hp and more nat prot gives us about the same effect. With light to medium armor, nat prot is better. With heavy armor, natural protection matters less and less. The guy with nat prot might get away with a little lighter armor, and thus lower encumberance, but would be more suspectible to AP and AN damage.


* Total prot = Natural prot + Armor prot - (Np*Ap/40) = 5+6 - (30/40) = 10

[Hullu]

I don't see why an unusually heroic HUMAN couldn't be as tough and strong as a caveman. In dominions it seems impossible.

I see those on Smackdown all the time... big strong men that is... heroic... well..

Or why an unusually heroic superCaveman couldn't be pretty close to a giant, etc.


Traditionally this problem is solved with dice in RPGs. Human has attributes between 3 and 18 or something similiar. In Dominions all humans are bound to 10. Why must even the heroes be clones of the ordinary crap militia-humans?:/ Yes, slight exaggerations here but you get the point.

[atul]

Heh. I just realized what made this thread feeling so familiar (apart from the subject being beaten to death every now and then from different angles).

Mel Gibson's character William Wallace in Braveheart.

Especially the scene where some grunts say that he can't be the legendary Wallace as the famous hero is a lot taller and stronger than he is. Instead, WW is just a skilled fighter with good oratory skills (um, high Standard ability) and dies when gutted as any one of us. Nothing without an army, but still portrayed as a Hero.

I like my heroes that way (and do like to send lightly equipped warrior queens to front lines to lead their troops), but DnD-esque players can disagree. Importing a Rolemaster-like system into a Dominions-like game would be a dream come true, but people would probably complain it isn't transparent enough as most of the kills would be due to critical hits...

[Hullu]

Dominions already has Rolemaster like open ended critical hits. Your militia can score a 1044999 damage hit on your god.

Anyways. If it's William Wallace you consider a fantasy hero instead of Conan, then I agree with dominions 10hp. But I'd prefer Conan for a fantasy hero.

[Twan]

IIRC William Wallace survives after several wounds, including a knight attack, he was only killed when he was surrounded in an ennemy dominion province. The pendant of luck his wife gave to him before being killed and the 80% missile deflection kilt he had like most scot sacred warriors (in the movie you even see their strange gestures to activate the power of the item ) can't explain all.

[Endoperez]

Hullu said:
I don't see why an unusually heroic HUMAN couldn't be as tough and strong as a caveman. In dominions it seems impossible.

I see those on Smackdown all the time... big strong men that is... heroic... well..

Or why an unusually heroic superCaveman couldn't be pretty close to a giant, etc.


Traditionally this problem is solved with dice in RPGs. Human has attributes between 3 and 18 or something similiar. In Dominions all humans are bound to 10. Why must even the heroes be clones of the ordinary crap militia-humans?:/ Yes, slight exaggerations here but you get the point.

A militiaman has hp 10, att/def 8-9. A hero has hp 15-19, att/def 13-15.

A Caveman has 23 hp. EA Ulm's Son of Steel (there's your Conan) has 17. Strength 17 against 14, att 10 against 15, def 10 against 13... Warenheris also starts with a two-handed Sword of Sharpness, with att/def 3 and lots of AP damage. That's GOOD!

Warenheris can kill a Caveman, one-on-one. He could do so even without equipment. He could kill a Jotun, too, one-on-one. That's GOOD! It's not good enough to win you a war, because ten Heavy Infantry might kill Warenheris, but he's still an exceptional human who could defeat most size 3-4 giants!


Also, you ask why human can't have as many hp as a Caveman? Caveman has 23. The best, strongest, toughest humans that currently exist in Dominions have 17 hp. 5 more hp would make it 30% increase over the current best humans. It might still work, for few exceptional guys, if they were rare. If other heroes were upgraded to hp 17-19 range, Son of Steel could have 20-21, and an equally tough mounted knight might have 22-23. But I don't think a human can have 30 hp, in Dominions terms. And in my opinion, 20 is a good, round limit for one of the many factors that affect survivability. Why? A Great Ape, a gorilla, has hp 18 and str 15. Son of Steel has hp 17 and str 14. The man's a beast!

But... A Water Elemental will crush him. He could beat a Troglodyte, and would have a good chance against Krakens, Gargoyles and the like, but then there are the Manticores, and the Iron Dragons, and the Wyrms - he doesn't have a chance in a fair fight. And even when he has a good chance, he won't do as well as Iron Dragons and Wyrms and undead monstrosities. The scale is just too big for a human to be too good in any one area.

There are MANY ways to make human heroes better. Increasing hp is one way that works, but I'd rather see something different.

At 20 hp, I'd start lowering enc, increasing natural protection, changing starting equipment to stronger ones, giving special abilities... a human isn't a giant. Human can beat a giant, and some Dominions heroes can. I think humans can even BECOME giants (some strange Foul Spawn via Transformation).

If you really want to make human heroes that survivable, we'd need something like White Ones' reincarnation ability - kill a hero, and there's a chance of him being reborn in a new body. Giving all nations two-three forms for reincarnated leaders would take a lot of time, and we don't have the modding commands, and the afflictions would vanish... but that would be a nice way of modeling heroic humans. Not perfect, of course, because there should be a chance of the hero taking few months to reappear (Lost in Space and Time?), and healing all afflictions a few times is a bit too miraculous in Dominions world... but it'd be a nice start.

[Hullu]

This conversation however, is pointless.

Some people want tougher human heroes, some don't. Mostly the arguments both ways are more or less good and plausible. People are not too likely to change their opinions over what the others say.

So how about we call it quits and let the game/mod designers decide.

[Agrajag]

Here's another idea, how about someone makes it so (in a mod) all those weak heroes have second forms they turn into when they die? (like Dai Oni into ghost-thingeys)
Make it so the secondary form represents them as unconcious (they can't attack or move, have much decreased stats etc.), that would give them a chance to survive a battle where they take one critical hit, and I think its quite thematic (there are several instances in books where the hero is knocked unconcious and then reawakens to see the results of the battle).
Only in a mod though, of course