MBT's

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

This pairs up to the one I just posted on the APC thread but dealing with NATO MBTs as taught by the USA. Again should be useful in fact checking and again for developers etc. What I REALLY like about the three I've posted is the variant and user country listings on these. Yes I know these are older.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...in0535/ch1.htm

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

A quick question as it's getting close to submitting my first list of recommendations of new equip. etc. for the game.
The MERKAVA 4 has a carry capacity of eight soldiers from several sources and one specifically states "in lieu of ammo supply" which makes sense. Would it, if it can even be done, be worth it to allow this carry capacity once all the ammo supply is used up? This would happen once the tank is down to it's final ten (Or eleven if you assume one loaded.) rounds which the "revolver" loader holds. A final push to the objective or falling back on defensive positions (Some might call this retreating, I like to think of it as "a reassessment of the tactical situation", yeah you're right retreating!) come to mind. The troops would enter/exit through the rear hatch that was designed for this purpose as well. The MERKAVA 4 is the only one of the type I can find that has this ability, which again makes sense since NAMER is a MERKAVA 4 without the turret.
Pics:
and

Regards,
Pat

[Imp]

Pretty sure this & a Ukraine stretched tank used to be included in OOBs which could carry internal passengers. Either can or it cant though cant switch as ammo reduces & think the practice might have died out at least for the Merkerva. If I remember Hezbollah killed their first Merk with a shot in town fired through/at the rear hatch. Later Ambush with ATGMs also showed some problems but mainly flawed tactics tanks stood up pretty well to them still running despite side penetrations in many cases but proved none to healthy for passengers. Seem to remember if the blast did not get them the tanks fire suppresion system did.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

The MERKAVA 4 has a carry capacity of eight soldiers from several sources and one specifically states "in lieu of ammo supply" which makes sense. Would it, if it can even be done, be worth it to allow this carry capacity once all the ammo supply is used up? This would happen once the tank is down to it's final ten (Or eleven if you assume one loaded.) rounds which the "revolver" loader holds.

I see one problem with that: how is ammunition stored?
Presumably it is not just strapped all over the place, or we would have seen more tanks blown up during the war.
It must be inside some sort of containers, which would still take up space even after the rounds inside are removed.
Of course those containers can be removed but how much time does it take? Is it something that can be done on the fly or does it take some time?

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

The MERKAVA 4 is the only one of the type I can find that has this ability, which again makes sense since NAMER is a MERKAVA 4 without the turret.
Pat

From what I have read it does not. It shares components but it is not just a plain Merkava hull without turret.

[Imp]

Marcello as you said think its a pre planned tactic tanks start ammo light & act as transport more realisticly for a half squad. Ukraine if I remember was supposed to be able to carry a Mech Squad but very cramped shoe horned between fighting & engine compartment.
Game terms played with Merkerva modified that way & quite efficent having your own recce unit inboard.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I don't know how to use the quote "thingy" (Don't need to thanks!) so I'll just use my "memory stick".

To the MERKAVA 4:
1) Yes they do containerize the ammo for the reasons stated to minimize the affects of a hit in the prevention of cooking off the rest.

2) Of the 48 rounds carried again the auto loader "revolver" holds ten, one in the breech and one source I believe to be army-recognition.com seems to hint at some ammo stored in the turret. And it also explains the purpose of the "aft" (Had to slip in a NAVY term!) chains as shown in the troop unloading picture to cause premature detonation of incoming munitions that to me is pretty cool, Gotta love "KISS"!

3) GENERALLY speaking don't 8 personnel make up a squad in most armies? But the point being we are leaving out another weapon that is standard issue on this tank to justify it's use as a "heavy" APC (But not equipped with it in WinSPMBT.) the breech loaded turret mounted 60mm mortar that fires primarily HE rounds out to 2400m (Please see my earlier MERKAVA 40th Birthday post and references.) I understand the MERKAVA 4 carries 24 mortar rounds to include illumination rounds as well. So whether the picture depicted is a training situation or a combat one it's clear the tank is being used for that purpose. Anyone that has or is serving regardless of branch knows we always prepare for the real thing. When not training we ate, slept (A little!) trained some more and "field day-ed" and made the brass shiny for the BRASS. I just don't know if that role is practical for the game, but I find the possibilities interesting none the less. Given the resources you better believe I'm the type to use those options against my enemies.

NAMER
1) I stand corrected, I confused chassis for hull, and yes it does use several components of the MERKAVA 4 which it's design was derived from. Also they are both made at the same production facility but more on that in the APC thread later.

And finally THANK YOU (ALL) for your input, I find the process interesting and well worth the effort to communicate with in all honesty I think intelligent folks of varying backgrounds from different parts of the world. But please just don't get me started on that whole CM artillery thing again, OK!?!

Everyone have a good night and a better day!!
Regards,
Pat

[Imp]

But please just don't get me started on that whole CM artillery thing again, OK!?

Dont know what you are talking about

On the mortar design decision I think due to 4 weapon slots as Merk carries several MGs like most of their APCs, big on supporting power for infantry.
Conjecture here not looked but the mortar was fitted originaly to the MK1 externaly then changed to external fire on later marks.
It is probably used with HE more for defending the imediate area round the tank possibly at range as an extra weapon vs ATGM teams. Otherwise ranged firing probably restricted to specialist shells beyound games capability like IR maybe even a Para Camera nowadays.
Upshot lets say it has 12-15 rounds of HE
Pros & Cons
Gains an extra splash damage weapon but has few shots vs the extra MG with lots of shots.
From a lethality point of view esp taking into acount its enviroment the MGs are the better bet due to ammo load.
Game wise these tanks are idealy suited to CS duties in open ground leading the advance they are a real pain in the ...
Pop smoke (multiple dischargers) suppress the infantry without recieving fire while theirs unloaded behind the smoke screen & only now go to check what the tanks missed.
Very very effective & going back to carrying troops if no APCs are available 2 tanks in the platoon could carry a squad between them they can scout for the units the tanks missed. The other thing they seemed to use this for was a heavy patrol, unload the infantry & let them go for a wander with the tank as backup if they found something.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

If weapons slots are limited, I agree I'll take the MG's over the mortar. I assume ammo slots are limited as well? Concern here is for the LAHAT ATGM which the MERKAVA 4, M60T and ARJUN carry. Can I get a firm "slot" count for weapons and ammo types so as not to waste everyone's time (Including mine.) on these issues. Still think the "Heavy APC" option would be fun to have if there's room for it!?!
As this is leading to the "list" thing, I'm thinking of submitting it on a separate thread to cover all the main topics I'm dealing with. Will maintain the format as worked out last year. Also to save time can I "cut and paste" my sources from previous posts to the "list" with the reader still being able to link to the site for the article?
Thanks in advance!!
Getting a little sentimental, so here's a pic because there's nothing like coming home!


Have a good night!!
Regards,
Pat

Saw MERKAVA thread and saw your post that combining an MBT with infantry could confuse the AI.

[Marcello]

It is quite simple.
There four weapon slots, therefore a max of four distinct weapons. The first weapon slot has four ammunition slots, HE/AP/Sabot/HEAT.
The other three weapon slots have only HE/AP.
The names don't have to be taken too much literally: Sabot can represent both arrowhead and actual discarding sabots rounds or simply different sabot types depending on the weapon stats.
And via a software trickery you can have AP rounds in the last three slots representing HEAT wrheads.
The max number of rounds that an ammo slot will hold is 255.
There is other stuff, such as being able to fire SAM at ground units etc. but the above is most of it.

It is somewhat limited, in that you have to fudge to represent non standard ammunition such as flechette or HESH, barrel fired ATGMs have to be treated as an extra weapon etc. but it has always been that way. It is sufficient to represent most of the tanks most of the time but nothing more, I suppose it was done for sake of memory/CPU/programming/budget/whatever back in the days.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I know this is on another thread but, since I posted on this as well here well you know...
The following site shows two videos from "Future Weapons" on Discovery Channel. The first one validates that the "Merk" from the beginning was designed for the role of carrying infantry on board and acting as an ambulance. I recognize this is secondary to crew survivability. The second video is well worth watching as as covers the updated capabilities of the "modernized" MK IV with it's new ammo round. Note Germany is fielding a new round similar to this on the latest version of the LEOPARD 2A7+ which is being done now as well. I'll have more on both for my first submission for the "Fall Campaign". Enjoy the videos, they're safe my computer didn't blow up!!
http://autos.kosmix.com/topic/Merkava

Regards,
Pat

Still searching for better interior shots.