I suck with Pythium ... please help!

[Huzurdaddi]

I make Harbingers and use them as mobile wrather's and they do an ok job at that. Heck they are one of the few summonable A2 units.

As for Arch angles, I have never used them, but I GUESS that they could be useful as ritual units.

When it comes to combat however the bane lord is pretty much 100% superior.

But that's how it goes with astral magic. You have potenial globals, potent battle magic, but really pretty gosh aweful price/performance summons. Well that's not 100% true I guess doom horrors are decent price performance. Well not really that good to be honest, but you take what you can get.

Unless I am missing something, if so please share!

[Thufir]

Huzurdaddi said:
I make Harbingers and use them as mobile wrather's and they do an ok job at that. Heck they are one of the few summonable A2 units.

What's a "mobile wrather"?

[Arryn]

Well, having had much personal experience myself with archangels (of the Dominions kind, that is), I can safely say that they have their uses. Especially for nations with an abundance of astral income, moderate air income, and no ready source for air mages otherwise. And air magics aside, they are also quite useful in their role as holy-4 priests.

BTW, contrary to the prevailing belief of some, combat isn't necessarily about who's got the biggest baddest toughest sword-swinger. You can rock your enemy's world with potent battle spells that are as much or even more effective. And that's without even getting into Gandalf's favorite area: stealth. Or the subtlety of converting the enemy units into your own. Dominions is a multidimensional game. It's too bad so much of the discussion on this forum is focused on what makes the best hammer ...

[archaeolept]

well, even a minimally equiped banelord will be
20 death + 10 astral +10 water and that's w/out lightning or fire resist.

for 50 astrals you get an archangel + 6 angels, each holy, armed w/ flambeaus which are vicious against demons and moderately tough undead, flying, and w/ some innate fire and lightning resist (only 50%, but more commonly needed than the banelord's poison and cold immunity). The archangel has F3 and H4, both nice and useful in their own right.

If you're running a blessing, and fighting abyssia or mictlan for instance, you might rather want to go for them...

I bought a bunch as marignon once, running an F9 S9 dual bless. Also as Jot fighting ermor, running an F4 W9 bless.

[Huzurdaddi]

What's a "mobile wrather"?

A flying unit that is equipped with a staff of storms and with enough gems to cast Wrathful Skies where needed. An awesomely powerful battlefield spell.

And air magics aside, they are also quite useful in their role as holy-4 priests.

I think you are getting the powers of the two units a little confused. Harbringer: 2A 3H, Arch Angel 3F 4H. But in any case it's a little bit of a stretch to say that a 50 gem summon is worth it for just Holy-4. There may be isolated cases, Ulm comes to mind, but in general that would be a huge waste of gems.

archangel + 6 angels, each holy, armed w/ flambeaus which are vicious against demons and moderately tough undead

Again I'll be honest here. I have never used them against devils. No wait that's not true I now remember trying them out against devils in one of my "what the heck can beat devils" tests. They got, as you would guess from the stats, spanked by devils. Now that was with no bless effect. With a seriously bless effect ( like F9S9 or F9W9 ) maybe they could hold their own.

I was actually thinking that they would do better.

Speaking of better, what the heck is up with the harbringers horn? I have tested them in huge numbers against devils and the horn, which looks deadly, does very little if any damage. Does it perhaps have a MR check?

It's too bad so much of the discussion on this forum is focused on what makes the best hammer ...

I think this is mostly due to the fact that SC's are quite effective in combat and are very mobile. The combination is quite deadly in a strategy game.

[Arryn]

Huzurdaddi said:
I think you are getting the powers of the two units a little confused. Harbringer: 2A 3H, Arch Angel 3F 4H.

Oops. You're right. I did get the path of the two mixed up. (When playing R'leyh I tend to summon both in quantity.) My bad. 3F is even more useful than 3A (IMO), but that's a separate discussion.

Huzurdaddi said:
But in any case it's a little bit of a stretch to say that a 50 gem summon is worth it for just Holy-4. There may be isolated cases, Ulm comes to mind, but in general that would be a huge waste of gems.

Naturally I disagree. A nation like R'leyh can easily afford the gems (by the time I can summon them I generally produce that many astrals each turn thanks to clams) and in this case it's a relatively cheap way to quickly get casters that can bLast your foes with Fires From Afar (and other nice fire spells). To me, the H4 is just icing on the cake.

BTW, as R'leyh, I of course have much better means at hand to deal with devils than trying to face them with kitted-out archangels, which while not a bad tool, isn't the best tool available for such a task. I think it's safe to say that we all consider the AA a "suboptimal" choice for that purpose. OTOH, part of the fun of Dominions is in playing around and seeing how some battles unfold. What's the fun in predictable outcomes of lopsided combats (when you know that your uber-SC is going to slaughter its opponent? Isn't it more exciting to watch an archangel girded for battle with the minions of Hell struggle to overcome powerful foes? Any such victories achieved will taste sweet indeed.

They may not be particularly cost-effective, but as I mentioned earlier, archangels do have their uses, especially under the right circumstances and nations.

[Molog]

Huzurdaddi said:
Unless I am missing something, if so please share!

Telestic animations become unholy with broken empire ermor. 5 astral gems for a level 3 unholy reanimator who can still preach isn't bad, I think.

[Boron]

Arryn said:
BTW, contrary to the prevailing belief of some, combat isn't necessarily about who's got the biggest baddest toughest sword-swinger. You can rock your enemy's world with potent battle spells that are as much or even more effective. And that's without even getting into Gandalf's favorite area: stealth. Or the subtlety of converting the enemy units into your own. Dominions is a multidimensional game. It's too bad so much of the discussion on this forum is focused on what makes the best hammer ...

Yeah Dominions is multidimensional but normally in lategame only either Battlemages or SCs , both with special troop support like devils , storm demons , living statues etc. are promising .

Special mages like soul slay/enslave mind astral mages , charm casting nature mages , deathmages with drain life and earth mages with petrify sure have good chances defeating SCs . The SC advantage is his high mobility + his resistences against some measures which normally work well against mages :
- Strategic spells like Flames / Murdering winter
- Assasins

And you can control your SC better because the mage doesn't follow his script after 5 orders anymore and/or is fatigued after 5-10 turns normally anyways .
Finally taking to much mages to battle hurts your research/summon/forging abilities too much .
SCs are just the most crucial part for most situations because they are good against almost everything and it is their natural role anyways .

I think Stealthtactics normally work rather bad . Gandalf stated this himself not long ago that he does it mainly for fun not to be effective . But you have to pay for the stealth ability so your stealthforce is more expensive then a normal force with about the same combat value .
If your stealthforce is too big it is discovered too easy by patrollers .

So Caelian/Abysian raiding forces are cheaper but have the same or even better effect .

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Naturally I disagree. A nation like R'leyh can easily afford the gems (by the time I can summon them I generally produce that many astrals each turn thanks to clams) and in this case it's a relatively cheap way to quickly get casters that can bLast your foes with Fires From Afar (and other nice fire spells). To me, the H4 is just icing on the cake.

BTW, as R'leyh, I of course have much better means at hand to deal with devils than trying to face them with kitted-out archangels, which while not a bad tool, isn't the best tool available for such a task. I think it's safe to say that we all consider the AA a "suboptimal" choice for that purpose. OTOH, part of the fun of Dominions is in playing around and seeing how some battles unfold. What's the fun in predictable outcomes of lopsided combats (when you know that your uber-SC is going to slaughter its opponent? Isn't it more exciting to watch an archangel girded for battle with the minions of Hell struggle to overcome powerful foes? Any such victories achieved will taste sweet indeed.

They may not be particularly cost-effective, but as I mentioned earlier, archangels do have their uses, especially under the right circumstances and nations.

What better means do you have as Ryleh to deal with devils ?
A soul slay / enslave mind etc. starspawn brigade is good too and i think you have something like this in mind .
And you need a staff of storms .
I guess vanheim is the "best" anti-devil nation cause they have good airmagic , can use a few storm demons on their own + a staff of storms is easy to get for them too .

But arch angels have definitive their uses and they are not that overpriced i think too . Especially for ermor they are probably attractive

[Huzurdaddi]

A soul slay / enslave mind etc. starspawn brigade is good too and i think you have something like this in mind .

Actually that is a suboptimal way to deal with devils. Devils have a very good MR. The only way to win that battle is with far more forces than he has.

The only really cost effective way of beating devils is to use an SC that can tank them. This is not super easy to acheive, but is possible. You will need an actual SC, mini-SC's need not apply.

Mechanical men+wrathful skies also works against devils.

Telestic animations become unholy with broken empire ermor. 5 astral gems for a level 3 unholy reanimator who can still preach isn't bad, I think.

That's really good!