Merkava.

[Marek_Tucan]

Pilots also train for ejecting the craft and evading enemy pursuit on the ground, though I guess they hope they will not have to do so IRL, same for lots of other drills and lots of other battlefield expedient solutions (like using tank destroyers and SP howitzers as assault guns etc.).

[kevineduguay1]

Please go back and CAREFULLY READ the information on the site posted on page 1. Find the links in the articles and read those and watch the videos. It will take the good part of a day to take it all in.
If you still don't belive any of it then you must belive that the author, an Israeli tank Commander, is just telling stories and the picture of his 11 man tank crew is just a picture of a group of his friends. After all, it's all just a "parlor trick".

[DRG]

Kevin. I have dial up and because of that anything on YouTube I avoid at all costs. The last Video I attempted to watch, which was, incidentally, one you posted a link to, took 50 minutes to get me 60 seconds of video and I have better things to do that wait 3 hours for a video to load

As much as I sympathize with the Israelis I am also aware they are quite adept at propaganda. They have to be because their "opponents" are adept at it as well. What I want to know is this..... is there a video, shot in one continuous shot, ( NOT edited for camera angles NOT photos of four guys ready to emerge and the other four out of camera range ) of 8 troops emerging from the back of a Merkava ?

My rough calculations indicate you would need a space roughly 7 .5 feet long and 5.5 feet wide to put 8 troops. ( they would really have to like each other.....) Given the hull is nearly 25 feet long and just over 12 feet wide that would be around 14 % of the available interior hull volumn so it's not a stretch to believe this is possible even though no other tank in the world has that capability.

BTW, we have tested the things as Gun APC's and they don't do anything radically weird in an AI advance

Don

[RERomine]

I've read through this thread several times. It is good reading with beer and pretzels. Anyhow, while they could squeeze 8 troops in there, it was as pointed out before ad-hoc and not doctrine.

All varieties of Merks were designed as MBT. The rear exit was designed to allow the crew to exit relatively safely if needed. Somewhere along the line, someone noticed it could be used for troops as well. That doesn't make it doctrine.

I've watched the various videos. The YouTube videos are clearly of a promotional variety, showing much of the same footage. The four men shown exiting the vehicle are lightly equipped and oddly armed. They could be an LMG, a sniper rifle, some variety of M16 with the M203 attached and some sort of SMG w/folding stock. And heaven forbid they have to get out in a hurry, because that didn't seem to be happening. In those videos, the 12 main round storage canisters have been removed. If you want to hear the loudest cry of anguish in the world, tell a tanker you are going to take away over 80% of his main gun ammo on a regular basis.

Another thing that has been pointed out is the Namer has been created as a heavy APC for the IDF. Depending on the source, it puts them as having capability to care 2-3 crew members and 9 fully equipped troops. They have removed all the ammo and the turret basket and for all that, all they could accomplish was make space for heavier equipment for the troops? If that is the best they could do, it sounds like it is highly unlikely to try to squeeze 8 men into a Merk on a regular basis.

That is the point of the topic at hand: Doctrine. There are many things that have been done on an ad-hoc basic. It doesn't make it doctrine. Comments and videos in one website, albeit a very large one, doesn't make it doctrine. Used in as a heavy APC in one relatively small campaign doesn't make it doctrine either. Prove this to be doctrine and people will listen. Don and Andy have gone through efforts to accommodate special requests where practical, without compromising commonly excepted ideas of realism.

If there is a niche that any one of us wants to fill by modding our units, we have been given the ability to do so. Make your change, play the game and be happy. If it is changed in the game for all, the AI will make it game doctrine, even if it real doctrine. We will see those Merks as HAPCs all over the place, even if it isn't really used that way.

[kevineduguay1]

DRG,

In the site posted on page one there is a section on the history of the Merkava. The propaganda issue is valid to an extent. When the MkI was first shown to the public 10 troops came out the back and the Israelis bragged about their tanks versitility. A short while later they said it could not carry troops. After 2006 and the conflict in Lebanon they again admitted thet troops could be caried. This back and forth and the Israelis being in an almost constant state of war makes research on the Merkava difficult at best. Much of the interior of the Merkava is still classified.

On the Tanknet website under Tank videos there is a 38 to 40 second video taken by a member of the inside of a old Merkava tank. It's not of great quality. When he gets to the rear of the vehicle you can plainly see 12 empty main gun ammo containers lining the rear compartment. They are stacked 2 deep and 3 high on each side of the hull. The man with the camers has no trouble moving between the stacked ammo boxes to exit the rear door of the vehicle.

This video can be found on Tanknet in the AFV forums under tank videos. It's in the first post on page 2. posted by Zakk.

Dial up stinks. I had it for the longest time and it realy limits your options.

I'm glad to hear that the AI works ok with this option in play. I only tried it in human played mode.

[kevineduguay1]

RERomine,

Thanks for at least reading the website.

Firstly doctrine changes by nessesity or a shift in tactical thought. If it did not the US would never have made the Stryker.

If not ment to carry troops or if not doctrine why the sniper port in the read door of some Merkavas? This feature will be on all Namer HAPCs.

The ammo is no longer packed in crates as shown in the above thumb-nail. They all come in their own container. Could this allow the ammo load to be shifted from the rear compartment to areas around or under the turret basket? Just enough to carry 50 rounds and 8 troops? Remember 10 rounds are already in the turret in the automatic magazine on MkIV. What about the article that mentions a possible 105mm ammo load of 92 rounds if no troops are carried or about 80 rounds of 120mm? Look up and then explain the Merkava "Tankbulance". 3 stretcher cases, 3 man medical team, life support and enough gear to perform emergency operations. Yet it can still with all this aboard fight like a tank. This version is said to have a reduced ammo load for the main gun but it still looks like anyother Merkava and hits just as hard.

The Namer is a very roomy vehicle but as you said only has 8 passenger/troop seats. The Namer is set to replace most if not all other APCs now in inventory with the IDF. It now carries 3 weapons if you count the Soltam 60mm mortar. The 50cal mounted on the R-OWS can be swaped out for a Mk19 AGL. In the near future the IFV varriant may mount a 30mm Bushmaster, coax 7.62 MG and a twin Spike ATGM launch tube mounted on a R-OWS. While the weapon will not protrude in any way into the troop compartment much of that extra space seen now will be used up to store the larger 30mm rounds and extra Spike missiles.

Mobhack,

I posted the question on Tanknet in the AFV forums. Never recived a notification from them. I just checked and was able to post today. Lets see what happens.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by kevineduguay1

Firstly doctrine changes by nessesity or a shift in tactical thought. If it did not the US would never have made the Stryker.

Agreed, but has it happened with the Merkava beyond ad-hoc. Versions of the Merkava have been around for roughly 36 years. Has carrying troops in the Merkava developed into an standard practice documented in IDF training manuals? I will admit that if it has, such manuals aren't readily available in the local book store. Also, I find very few references to the capability on the internet as well. There are some, but the number of sites that omit any references at all seems to vastly out number those that do mention it.

Originally Posted by kevineduguay1

If not ment to carry troops or if not doctrine why the sniper port in the read door of some Merkavas? This feature will be on all Namer HAPCs.

This one you would have to ask the designers or tankers who had input into the design. I would take a guess that it would be nice to know the rear of the tank is clear before the crew bails out if they need to. Keep in mind, a sniper is one person with light gear. The Merkava could carry one person extra person without off loading any ammo and the one person should not hinder operations of the tank.

Originally Posted by kevineduguay1

The ammo is no longer packed in crates as shown in the above thumb-nail. They all come in their own container. Could this allow the ammo load to be shifted from the rear compartment to areas around or under the turret basket? Just enough to carry 50 rounds and 8 troops? Remember 10 rounds are already in the turret in the automatic magazine on MkIV. What about the article that mentions a possible 105mm ammo load of 92 rounds if no troops are carried or about 80 rounds of 120mm? Look up and then explain the Merkava "Tankbulance". 3 stretcher cases, 3 man medical team, life support and enough gear to perform emergency operations. Yet it can still with all this aboard fight like a tank. This version is said to have a reduced ammo load for the main gun but it still looks like anyother Merkava and hits just as hard.

I'm not sure what you mean by they all come in their own container. In one photo, I saw rounds in their own shipping tubes, but you wouldn't put the tubes in the tank. Just the rounds would be loaded. No matter anyhow. I also can see an extra 24 rounds being loaded at the expense of being able to use the rear exit. That gives it 82 rounds with that load.

As far as the Tankbulance, I have read two stretchers from other sources, not three. Despite the fact the website you provided says three, a picture in the same website shows only two and basic life saving equipment. I seriously doubt they are going to have a doctor on board. Even removing a splinter, he is likely to do more harm than good unless the vehicle is standing still, not shooting and not getting hit. Medics are enough. Stabilize and evacuate. That is their role.

Originally Posted by kevineduguay1

The Namer is a very roomy vehicle but as you said only has 8 passenger/troop seats. The Namer is set to replace most if not all other APCs now in inventory with the IDF. It now carries 3 weapons if you count the Soltam 60mm mortar. The 50cal mounted on the R-OWS can be swaped out for a Mk19 AGL. In the near future the IFV varriant may mount a 30mm Bushmaster, coax 7.62 MG and a twin Spike ATGM launch tube mounted on a R-OWS. While the weapon will not protrude in any way into the troop compartment much of that extra space seen now will be used up to store the larger 30mm rounds and extra Spike missiles.

How it impacts the passenger compartment remains to be seen. ATGMs aren't all that small and have to be stored properly, which takes up space. Don't be surprised if it reduces the number of passengers that can be carried. That is if we even find out anytime in the near future. It is unlikely the IDF will publish details in the newspaper.

Do you understand where you are getting resistance from with respect to the change you have requested? I don't think anyone has really questioned that the Merkava can carry troops or that you can fit eight in there, albeit lightly equipped and tight. It still boils down to whether the tactic has made it to mainstream doctrine. Maybe somewhere it is in doctrine on dealing with terrorists and guerrillas who don't have tanks. I highly doubt they would use such a tactic against an enemy who can field hundreds or thousands of tanks. That is the type of war that threatens their very livelihood and that is the type of war their doctrine is going to be built around. If you can show that carrying troops is part of the IDF principle doctrine, I would be surprised if your requested change didn't occur.

[Imp]

Your tanknet post produced virtualy the result expected, can use in an emergency to evacuate but are used with a couple of men on board which is pretty much if you remember how said played when I modified let it carry a scout unit.
Makes sense Israel likes to protect there men so best protected & crucialy fastest vehicle forward, tank commander can stay in the tank & let his passengers go for a look maybe even launch a little hand held UAV.
Or they can check a firing location for suitability & then take up position to defend it from RPGs given opponent.
They also have the ability to field command tanks easily, 2 guys & some electronics could probably fit & still carry a decent ammo load.

[kevineduguay1]

You better go back. Its getting interesting. A member posted as 5-alef is elusive at best. When another member said that the "few" infantry sat between the ammo boxes in the back 5-alef said,

"at the exit and to the sides - where ever there is space"

In the you-tube videos posted here there are 5 men in the back, 4 combat troops and the photographer. Freeze the frame just as the rear doors let in the light. Notice where the men are sitting and the possition of the overhead hand rails. Now go to Tanknet and look at the nice photos posted of the rear compartment of a Mk on my thread.
Also remember that the man commenting on how little space is in the tank is a little over 6 feet tall. (1.95 m)

[Imp]

Kevin go back & reread all the posts it was Alef who said 1 or 2 men & has now elaborated THEY sit to the sides. He is not going to give much more away do not pi&@ them off its classified. Thats all I have to say on the subject Don & Andy can read it & decide the outcome.