Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.

[Fyron]

That is all fine. It still does not have anything to do with telekinesis, which is a projection of force powered by mental (psionic) energy from the being doing the telekinesis.

[Phoenix-D]

Explain why the shields could block mental force, then. (hell, explain why they could block -any- force, aside from maybe electromagnetic)

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
That is all fine. It still does not have anything to do with telekinesis, which is a projection of force powered by mental (psionic) energy from the being doing the telekinesis.

From the context, it would appear that Pax is suggesting that in his view of how the currently commonly considered imaginary field of telekenesis, the energy generated by the psis' is transmitted through a mechanism that skips distances and interviening matter/energy/whatever in a similar manner to quantum tunneling or the unknown mechanism of quantum pairings; thus skipping shields.

Likewise, from the context it would appear that you are suggesting that in your view of how the currently commonly considered imaginary field of telekenesis, the energy generated by the psis' is transmitted through a mechanism that does not skip distances and interviening matter/energy/whatever.

As the existance of telekenesis is currently open to debate, and thus the mechanism hasn't been studied (assuming that it exists in the first place in order to have a mechanisim) and is thus unknown, debating based on realism wether or not this possibly nonexistant force could get through a shield that is currently only hypothesized is laughable. Or, as Geo put it:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Are you seriously debating telekinetic powers skipping shields, and using a realism argument? ROFL!

Geoschmo

[Pax]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
That is all fine. It still does not have anything to do with telekinesis, which is a projection of force powered by mental (psionic) energy from the being doing the telekinesis.

So ... you have proof of this "fact", perhaps ... ? You can describe to us the precise energy type, the mechanics of the resultant wave form, it's mechanism of generation, and the physics and mechanics of it's propagation through matter, EM fields, and/or vacuum? Maybe even shed some light on the biological and/or technological structures neccessary to generate such effects and waveforms, complete with working schematics?

If so, then please, do tell ...

Prove to us that quantum tunelling is not as equally valid for energy as it is for matter. Then prove that the energy wave-form(s) associated with the use of telekinetic or psychokinetic events does not, and can not, utilise quantum tunnelling, or any similar phenomenon.

Of course, you can't. I've refuted your claim that only magic can allow such a thing to happen, with real-world current-technology examples of actual, hard science.

You are relying solely on newtonian physics for your argument; I am delving into the possibilities inherent in quantum physics for mine. Therein lies the downfall of your argument: quantum physics always trumps newtonian physics. The only factor they have in common would be, AFAIK, the First Law of Thermodynamics.

It is IMO entirely feasible, and scientifically possible, that the TKProjector randomly re-balances kinetic energy in the target -- taking some FROM one place, and adding it TO another place -- and that several aspects of quantum mechanics governs the means and methods by which this is acomplished.

I have therefor posited that such is the mechanism by which telekinesis works, ergo, shields are about as useful against a powerful (or in this case, artificial and/or artificially amplified) telekinetic as a papier-mache hull would be against a Shard Cannon X. Which is to say, not at all.

So, I say again -- if you dislike it this much, why not simply not play this particular mod ... ?

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Explain why the shields could block mental force, then. (hell, explain why they could block -any- force, aside from maybe electromagnetic)

Actually, and I'm working form half-remembered stuff here, but I remember one of the Voyager satellites had to have several course corrections after bouncing off of Jupiter's EM field. Sunward, the planets' EM fields are compressed by the constant pressure of the solar wind; my understanding is, this creates areas of exceptionally strong EM flux, in layers of "shells", around the planets.

In the case of a giant like Jupiter, these can have a very real effect on even relatively-massive physical objects. At least twice, perhaps more often, that Voyager satellite I mentioned had it's course deflected away from Jupiter, neccessitating several repeated tries to cross that point in Jupiter's EM field before the flyby could be managed.

So in the least, it's possible for an EM-based field to deflect energy and/or physical objects ... if the field is strong enough, and it's density is somehow compressed sufficiently.

Originally posted by Jack Simth:
From the context, it would appear that Pax is suggesting that in his view of how the currently commonly considered imaginary field of telekenesis, the energy generated by the psis' is transmitted through a mechanism that skips distances and interviening matter/energy/whatever in a similar manner to quantum tunneling or the unknown mechanism of quantum pairings; thus skipping shields.

Exactly, unequivocably, and precisely correct.

[Loser]

I knew this thread had too many Posts to be a mod or PBW discussion anymore. Some of you guys jump topics more than Cecilia jumps hippies.

[edit: to != too]

[ July 28, 2003, 18:37: Message edited by: Loser ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
That is all fine. It still does not have anything to do with telekinesis, which is a projection of force powered by mental (psionic) energy from the being doing the telekinesis.

Fyron, rather then just restating your original objections, why not actually address the comments made by others to refute your statements? Answer then my previous question.

Originally posted by geoschmo:
But nothing about telekinesis requires a path. It's using mental energy to manifest a force out of nothing. If we are going to accept a weapon that violates the laws of thermodynamics as it's fundamental operating principle, we don't have to say the force is created out of nothing at the point of the projector. We can simply say the force is being created out nothing at the point of the target. Either one is acceptable once we get past the initial violating assumption.

EDIT: Put it this way, if the force required a path from the mind creating it to the target it would punch a hole through their own ship on the way out. Unless the psychics are strapped to the outside of the hull.

Geoschmo

If you aren't going to at least attempt to back up your objections to Pax's mod with some reasonable explanations, please don't continue to clutter up the thread with argumentative and nonsensical Posts. People are getting a little tired of it.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Explain why the shields could block mental force, then. (hell, explain why they could block -any- force, aside from maybe electromagnetic)

What I can get from his comments is that the shields aren't blocking the mental energy, but the physical force being manifested by the mental energy. And in a limited way this does make some sense. For example, if I were trying to argue Fyron's point for him I would suggest the following:

Geoschmo speaking for Fyron based on his comments...The telekinesis weapon can simply be thought of as another type of energy beam weapon. Where normally you have a gun using some physical process to generate a physical stream of anti-protons or phased polarons, you have a living sentient being using mental enrgy to generate a stream of some kind of damaging force. The force that actually is created is not mental energy, it's created by mental energy, and thus shuld be blocked by shields. Unless the force is being created with some shield skipping properties, such as phased polarons, and that is not implicitly stated.

Now, the glaring hole in the logic of the above statement is that the physical force being created from mental energy has to start somewhere. If we assume it starts from the point of the being with the mental energy, then reasonably as Fyron says it would be blocked by shields. However if this were the case it would also reasonably be blocked by the inner hull of the ship the being is sitting in and punch a hole in it equivalent to it's destructive force on teh way out. Your ship would take as much damage as the enemies, and your psychics would be vented into space every time they used their powers. The three ways to get around this are to say that
1. The psychic is strapped to the hull.
2. The telekinetic projector component that is installed on the ship is some kind of special material that allows physical forces to pass through it without damaging it, but only in one direction. (out)
3. The mental force does not actually create the physical force at the point of the psychic, but at some other point along the target line between the psychic and teh target.

Fyron either believes 2, or 3 and makes the assumption that the point the mental energy creates the physical force is outside of the targets shielding. Or he believes some other process is at work that I have not considered and he has yet to explain it to us.

If he believes 3 he has not explained why it is unreasonable to assume the mental energy cretaes the physical force at the point of the target, underneath the tragets shielding.

Geoschmo

[oleg]

But why we assune you are trying to directly push enemy ship ? Psycic can arguable focus on the bulet or a handfull of anti protons and accelerate them toward enemy ! The reason may be the short range of telekinetic power. It can easily go down witha distance.

[Fyron]

Oleg's point about mental powers being limited in range is quite valid...

Name := Telekinetic Projector I
Description := Projects a battering ram of telekinetic force against its target.

Lets see... projects a battering ram of telekinetic force... This means that the projector projects the force, not some sort of mentalic wave that moves to the ship which projects the force. Force is most certainly stopped by the shields, as evidenced by most other weapons.

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Oleg's point about mental powers being limited in range is quite valid...

It sort of is - again, you're discussing theoretical technology based on something that is currently commonly considered imaginary. The question of "is it valid, or not?" depends on which piece of fiction one looks at. For some, it is; for others, it isn't.

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

Name := Telekinetic Projector I
Description := Projects a battering ram of telekinetic force against its target.

Lets see... projects a battering ram of telekinetic force... This means that the projector projects the force, not some sort of mentalic wave that moves to the ship which projects the force. Force is most certainly stopped by the shields, as evidenced by most other weapons.

---

At worst, that just means he needs to change the description for his mod. However, it doesn't say where the battering ram starts. Unless shields hug the hull perfectly, there's no particular reason why the force can't form inside the target's shields to batter at the hull.