Weapons, engines and mods, Oh my!

[PvK]

Originally posted by atomannj:

Ship size:
-Allowing Escort an extra engine from 6 to 7. They are now very useful scouts.

Better than nothing. I still think there need to be some more comprehensive changes to make smaller ships worthwhile (e.g. Proportions mod).

-torpedoes get +15% to hit and reduced size to 40k

Torpedoes are 40kT in the unmodded game.

Mostly sounds good though.

PvK

[ June 13, 2003, 23:17: Message edited by: PvK ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

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Originally posted by atomannj:

Ship size:
-Allowing Escort an extra engine from 6 to 7. They are now very useful scouts.

Better than nothing. I still think there need to be some more comprehensive changes to make smaller ships worthwhile (e.g. Proportions mod).

Mostly sounds good though.

PvK

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Smaller ships also should have a good Combat To Hit Defense Plus as well

[Andrés]

Lone scouts are one of the few realistic roles left for small ships.
In SE4 you never need to transport a few people or small amounts of cargo.
There are no limited-conflicts or wild space where you'll have to defend with small weapons, you have either safe systems or heavily defended enemy territory.
Small lone combat ships are pointless because they are only likely to face massive enemy fleets.
IMHO Proportions overcompensates this lack of roles for small ships forcing the player to use small ships to make his as massive as possible combat fleets.

I like that there is more contrast between large and small ships.

IMHO torps need a better damage ratio in adition to that to hit bonus. Either decrease their tonnage or increase their damage.

[Taera]

I'd like to add to the original topic. While many (esp. fyron) will argue with me there is no useless weapon in this game. Let me review some:

Torpedoe weapons - that tech tree is available early and starts off cheap but goes up to level 10. Initially same points put into DUC will give you a better result. Torpedoes are generally useless untill Quantum. Then the weapon becomes quite the useful. True, it doesnt have the best dkt ratios and ROF 2 but its one of only three heavy-duty weapons. It has an advantage over WMG for coming earlier, IIRC being easier to research and having lower ROF and tonnage. Those things, when put on large or better - massive - mounts they can down ships with few shots. Those weapons are also the ultimate long-range because they lose no damage. In my tests a LC with torpedoes and shield depleter beats a LC and sometimes a CR armed with PPM and NSP. Overall it provides a relatively unique strategies that can give great benefits in the long run. Never a short-term weapon.

Graviton Hellbore - tell me what you want about how weak and useless it is, two salvos done in short range and your all-powerful APB killer-ship is toast. ROF of 2. This one is ultimate melee weapon, but especially fefective at WP defense - you get to fire and move first, and you're up close already. Just set appropriate strategy, back it up with some lower ROF weapon and it'll take some effort to breach those WP's. Besides researching Astrophysics 2 gives some other benefits, and GH is cheap to research or build.

Anything more?

[JLS]

Originally posted by Andres:
IMHO torps need a better damage ratio in adition to that to hit bonus. Either decrease their tonnage or increase their damage.

Agreed

[PvK]

Originally posted by Andres:

IMHO Proportions overcompensates this lack of roles for small ships forcing the player to use small ships to make his as massive as possible combat fleets.

Seems to me Proportions just makes small ships a valid choice, but doesn't force players to use them. What am I missing?

PvK

[Andrés]

I just don't like arbitrary unrealistic rules that make large ships a poor choice only to make smaller ships more used.

As I had tried to explain smaller ships are not used because there is no role for them in late game, and that cannot be changed without chaging the whole game structure.

[PvK]

What's arbitrary or unrealistic about Proportions' settings for ship sizes?

I still don't see why you wouldn't use large ships in Proportions - I know I do when I play.

PvK

[Taera]

i think hes saying the other thing, that smaller ships are useless

[oleg]

I think there is some misunderstanding here about small and big ships in Proportions/AIC mods. PvK simply made smaller ships harder to hit than bigger ships - perfectly sensible idea ! Also, Proportions uses QNP, hence smaller ships can run faster and use less supplies. Otherwise, large ships are still better than smaller ships. It is just there are some roles that smaller ships would perform better even in late game !