Dev Thinking on Balance? - Page 6

Catquiet · #51 May 4th, 2004, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:
Originally posted by Catquiet:
The Vampire Queen can have 30 protection, quickness, 18+ attack and defense, damage shields, and immunity to all elemental damage without any equipment at all. Add an armor piercing life drain attack which heals HPs + restores fatigue whenever she damages an enemy and you have an enemy that regains health faster than you can damage her. The VQ is not a game breaker but she does give more power for the points than any other pretender.

IMHO you exaggerate your case. How are you getting 18+ attack and defense without equipment? How do you manage to cast invulnerability, quickness, several damage shields, and 3 elemental immunities?

18 Attack and Defence? The VQ starts at 12, quickness give +3 att/+3 def, and the VQ racks up experience very quickly for the other +3.

Well you can't have several damage shields at once with total elemental immuntity. But she is already immune to cold and poison, so you do have room for one damage shield. (quickness),(invulnerability),(resist fire),(resist lightning), (astral shield or fire shield or soul vortex).

And you will rarely be facing an army with both fire and lightning attacks so you can switch one or both of those resist spells for a damage shield in most cases.

Jasper · #52 May 4th, 2004, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kel:

quote:
Originally posted by Jasper:
I discretely polled around of those whom I believe to be the best players, and they all agree, while those who disagree are unknown to me.

Hehe, I am not disagreeing with you on the subject but that's a pretty dismissive thing to say. Rude, even. This 'Old Boys Club' have a public roster somewhere ?

- Kel

No, it's not meant to be dismissive. It's simply that there are some people who's skill I know, and many others who's skill I do not know. People who's skill I do not know need to make a compelling argument to convince me, which IMHO has not been done.

My main point is that I don't think a compelling argument for clam's brokeness has been made, and that I feel that the counter points have not been addressed. A secondary point is is that I'm not just relying upon my own opinion, and have considered this seriously.

[ May 04, 2004, 17:59: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Jasper · #53 May 4th, 2004, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Kel:
Now, I can see where she might be a mediocre late game SC, due entirely due to her low(for an SC) hp. Otoh, her immortality goes some way to compensate for this.

I entirely agree.

But if VQ is the best early/mid game SC, how does she compare to other early/mid game chasses ?

I don't think she is. She can be good, but there are others at least as good.

[ May 04, 2004, 18:03: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Jasper · #54 May 4th, 2004, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Catquiet:
18 Attack and Defence? The VQ starts at 12, quickness give +3 att/+3 def, and the VQ racks up experience very quickly for the other +3.

Well you can't have several damage shields at once with total elemental immuntity. But she is already immune to cold and poison, so you do have room for one damage shield. (quickness),(invulnerability),(resist fire),(resist lightning), (astral shield or fire shield or soul vortex).

Hence my point that you are exaggerating, if only a bit.

I would point out that these things you mention are not extraordinary, but rather commonplace or even a bit weak in a combat pretender -- especially once you take equipment into account.

[ May 04, 2004, 18:07: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Jasper · #55 May 4th, 2004, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Yup. They also meet every third week in an old pub somewhere in Detroit to discuss how to govern the world without newbies noticing.

The club, such as it is, also gladly accepts new members.

Being involved in such debate is the general method of admitance IMHO, especially if you do a good job of pointing out how my views are mistaken and force me to reassess my opinions.

Those Jasper believes to be the best players are probably people he knows from MP games since the days of Dom1. A bit rude perhaps, but there were some remarks on the betas that were a bit rude as well.

As well as those that I have debated with, yet never played against, or who's reputations I've heard of from a reliable second hand source.

I truly was meaning to be merely frank and not rude, as I'm behind schedule on my work and don't really have time to beat around the bush. Another reason I was reticent to get into this debate.

[ May 04, 2004, 18:14: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Graeme Dice · #56 May 4th, 2004, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper:
I don't think she is. She can be good, but there are others at least as good.

There aren't any that are as low risk though, or that can get out the door as fast. With mistform, mirror image, quickness, ironskin, and breath of winter she can conquer any independent province I've seen regardless of strength.

Pirateiam · #57 May 4th, 2004, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:
Originally posted by Catquiet:
18 Attack and Defence? The VQ starts at 12, quickness give +3 att/+3 def, and the VQ racks up experience very quickly for the other +3.

Well you can't have several damage shields at once with total elemental immuntity. But she is already immune to cold and poison, so you do have room for one damage shield. (quickness),(invulnerability),(resist fire),(resist lightning), (astral shield or fire shield or soul vortex).

Hence my point that you are exaggerating, if only a bit.

I would point out that these things you mention are not extraordinary, but rather commonplace or even a bit weak in a combat pretender -- especially once you take equipment into account.

Are you kidding????....(beating head against wall) So let me get this straight - by say turn 12 you have a SC that has 40+HP(which is easily replenished from life drain), attack/Def of +18, flys, is poison immune, cold immune, fire or light immune,Is invulnerable, With quickness, luck, has life drain, does not fatigue, and if you actually some how kill the thing (yet to see it happen) it is back the next turn!!!!! (keeps beating head against wall) If you do not think this is possible...I am currently in s MP game fighting CatQuiet's VQ.(I had the unenviable luck of being standard Ulm and his nieghbor) I can verify that what he said is easily attainable! If a player such as CatQuiet who is very skilled with the VQ tells you it needs some balancing I would listen.

Gandalf Parker · #58 May 4th, 2004, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:
Originally posted by Jasper:
I don't think she is. She can be good, but there are others at least as good.

There aren't any that are as low risk though, or that can get out the door as fast. With mistform, mirror image, quickness, ironskin, and breath of winter she can conquer any independent province I've seen regardless of strength.

Isnt that true of most gods you add those to?

is everyone going to keep adding up her pluses or are there suggestions what to do about her? Make her more expensive? After all, she is still just one piece. there are alot of single pieces in the game that can kick tail but that wont win anything but a tiny game.

If the VQ is banished by priests does she still return? (maybe have been covered, sorry if I missed it being mentioned)

Isnt she susceptable to the same routing problem as other gods?

Norfleet · #59 May 4th, 2004, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I am currently in s MP game fighting CatQuiet's VQ.(I had the unenviable luck of being standard Ulm and his nieghbor) I can verify that what he said is easily attainable! If a player such as CatQuiet who is very skilled with the VQ tells you it needs some balancing I would listen.

Pff. Catquiet's VQ doesn't scare me. I'm due to shortly counter it soon, and I fully intend on watching it crash and burn. Bring 'em on.

Frankly, I'm not surprised you can't kill it, if the depths of your ability involve hurling more and more troops at it. It's a strategy, and if you can't counter it, it'll eat you for lunch: A strategy that DOESN'T eat you for lunch if not countered is totally worthless! What the hell good is a strategy that doesn't even work on people who aren't prepared for it?

Besides, you're Ulm. He's Ermor. You were more or less screwed from the beginning, as Ulm is known to be weak against SG Ermor. Marignon vs. Abysia is another similar mismatch.

[ May 04, 2004, 19:12: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Jasper · #60 May 4th, 2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
Are you kidding????....(beating head against wall) So let me get this straight - by say turn 12 you have a SC that has 40+HP(which is easily replenished from life drain), attack/Def of +18, flys, is poison immune, cold immune, fire or light immune,Is invulnerable, With quickness, luck, has life drain, does not fatigue, and if you actually some how kill the thing (yet to see it happen) it is back the next turn!!!!! (keeps beating head against wall) If you do not think this is possible...

No, I am not kidding. I do not think what you have described is extraordinarily strong. Such things are also possible with other pretenders, including ones that will beat a VQ head to head.

The fact that you are losing to this strategy is not by itself enough to convince me.

[ May 04, 2004, 19:24: Message edited by: Jasper ]