Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
If no orders are given, Both your units as well as those of your AI enemy will use the same Algorythms to determin what to do. But you can override this for the first five turns which can give you an advantage. The AI obviously can't override itself.

Unfortunately, this works entirely in his favor, because now the AI is controlling BOTH of your units. Thus, the AI always has full control, and can do whatever it wishes, whereas you can't.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Boron:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
You're missing the point that in this case, the AI still controls its own units. You don't.

LOL. And he is still not geting it. Oh well, since I wouldn't want to continue what some people feel is namecalling, all I can say is: No future comments.

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i think here you don't get norfleets point :
i understand it that norfleet means :

the ai can give orders to each unit the whole battle while you can only give indirect orders for the first 5 actions .

under this viewpoint norfleets statement is quite true and even wisely

so the ai has full control of every unit while you have only really little control for the first few turns if you give orders yourself .

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Oh, I understand what Norfleet means very well Boron. It is he who is not able to grasp my explanations.

Norfleet is simply confused by his own terminology. He thinks that because both tactical AI, which is more precisely just an automatic battlefield spell selection algoritm, and Strategic AI - who is your real computer opponent , are both programs and can be both roughly called "AI", that means that they are somehow part of the same evil "computer opponent", who is out there to get him.

As a senior software engineer with background in AI programming, I can tell you that tactical AI and Strategic AI have absolutely nothing to do with each other. "Tactical AI" is just a simple tool, which works exactly the same for all human and computer players, and which can be used by both your and Strategic AI - who is your real opponent.

Botton line is - the tactical battlefield AI do not give any unfair advantage to computer opponents. It works exactly the same for human and computer opponents, and humans have an option to using it from the begining, by switiching mages to "spells", if they choose to. Unlike computer-controlled players though, humans can also scrip first 5 spells manualy, if they choose to. Strategic AI obviosly lack this option, by being, duh, AI.

[ August 02, 2004, 23:37: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[PrinzMegaherz]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Unfortunately, this works entirely in his favor, because now the AI is controlling BOTH of your units. Thus, the AI always has full control, and can do whatever it wishes, whereas you can't.

Either you are making a joke here or you have a wrong understanding on what tha AI actually is.

You make it sound as if the AI tried to make you lose by giving your troops bad commands. That's wrong. The AI is not some kind of entity inside your PC that is out there to beat you. Your troops will be given those commands that the AI assumes is best suited for your success. She does this for both sites, so there is really no advantage for anyone. Lets say that both armies are equally skillfully lead. If you script your own command chain, you will propably make a script that is supperior compared to those the AI does, giving you an advantage.

[Boron]

don't want to quote again stormbinder this would fill the half page
hm i really thought that perhaps really the computer opponent tactical ai is another a bit cleverer than your own tactical ai if you either don't script or if 5 turns have passed .

because i think that would be fair if the ai has a slightly better battlefield ai then the player battlefield ai so that there are 2 slightly different battlefield ais .

so i thought perhaps norfleet has discovered this . in the starting of the post too the guess was made the computer ai may perhaps still use dominion 1 battle orders .

so it was basically wish thinking by me
ai's just need some advantages to be really competetive for expierienced players

[Lex]

it wouldn't make sense to program two seperate combat algorythms for the human players and the AI controlled players. Dominions is all about role playing accuracy. And as far as I can see, there's no sense in one army behaving differently then another simply because it's controlled by the computer.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
You make it sound as if the AI tried to make you lose by giving your troops bad commands.

It does. Witness "The AI makes your pretender uselessly cast junk spells until it passes out and dies".

That's wrong. The AI is not some kind of entity inside your PC that is out there to beat you.

Yes it is. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point to playing against it, would you? Who wants to play an opponent that doesn't try to beat you? This is boring.

Your troops will be given those commands that the AI assumes is best suited for your success.

No, the AI gives commands that are best suited for *ITS* success....not yours. If you leave a unit simply on "no orders", the unit will NOT behave like it does when the AI is controlling it.

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Strategic AI obviosly lack this option, by being, duh, AI.

The strategic AI doesn't NEED this option, because he already has full control of his tactics. The tactical AI *IS* an extension of the strategic AI. It does exactly what he wants it to do. The same cannot be said for you, as the tactical AI never does what you want it to do beyond the level you can force it to do so.

Originally posted by Boron:
don't want to quote again stormbinder this would because i think that would be fair if the ai has a slightly better battlefield ai then the player battlefield ai so that there are 2 slightly different battlefield ais .

so i thought perhaps norfleet has discovered this . in the starting of the post too the guess was made the computer ai may perhaps still use dominion 1 battle orders .

The AI definitely does different things that you cannot possibly do, as evidence from the original poster shows, and is far more reactive. This is because the AI is able to "script orders", as it were, on the fly, right before the battle starts, rather than having to guess. Notice how you will never, ever, catch the AI having been scripted to fight someone else, and his mages never charge you with a spoon for no comprehensible reason. Note also how, if left up to the AI, your pretender will be allowed to cast spells until it faints from exhaustion....but the AI's pretender won't do this: You can easily witness the AI's pretender casting its spells, and then ATTACKING YOU.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Alexi:
it wouldn't make sense to program two seperate combat algorythms for the human players and the AI controlled players. Dominions is all about role playing accuracy. And as far as I can see, there's no sense in one army behaving differently then another simply because it's controlled by the computer.

Actually, this is untrue. It makes perfect sense: The AI's combat algorithms are often more sophisticated specifically because it has to oppose you, whereas the "friendly force" algorithms are simplistic and designed to, at best, make a feeble attempt to prod the player, who's supposed to be playing the game, in the right direction. If the AI did everything for you, you wouldn't need to play the game. In Soviet Russia, the game plays you!

[ August 03, 2004, 00:46: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
A human-played army would have to first go through its pre-scripted spells, regardless of the fact that many of them would be near-useless (certainly by comparison with Banishment), before finally settling down to kick some undead butt.

You could achieve exactly the same thing by placing all your commanders on "stay behind troops" or "cast spells".

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
[QB]Note also how, if left up to the AI, your pretender will be allowed to cast spells until it faints from exhaustion....but the AI's pretender won't do this: You can easily witness the AI's pretender casting its spells, and then ATTACKING YOU.

I assume that you can actually provide an example of this, since anybody who isn't trying to mislead new players won't have seen this behaviour.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I assume that you can actually provide an example of this, since anybody who isn't trying to mislead new players won't have seen this behaviour.

You mean other than the fact that I've seen it happen before? I don't exactly play a lot of SP anymore, you know, but you can definitely see it happen, which clearly indicates the AI isn't just set on default orders, and *IS* actually making decisions. What exactly do you want as an example? A screenshot? Because I can hardly go around posting my MP turns anywhere, since they'd be passworded and unreadable.

[ August 03, 2004, 01:42: Message edited by: Norfleet ]