Noob questions!

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by licker:
Its all in how the payoff is set up...

I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.

[Pocus]

It is obious that IW cant spend too much time on every minute feature of the game, so I propose we drop this dicussion. The issues are :

- in MP : no issue, nobody will use the arena.
- in SP : if the player want to cheat the AI he is playing against, then he can send a trapped commander. If it amuses him to play fairly, then he can send a normal commander.

Anyway, the arena concept of Illwinter is not to have a nice place where you can earn nice toys, its just a secondary (or tertiary) feature which will remain as it is, for the best or the worst of the game.

[Truper]

Amen. It seems we have a lot of posters desperate to make mountains out of molehills.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by MStavros:Johan, let me ask you a question. Why do you support cheating? In singleplayer, the AI can be abused totally in the Arena fights.
Illwinter must fix this, since this is the most annoying cheat in Dominions I.
It is working in multiplayer, since you cannot abuse anything, but in singleplayer it is a bad part of the game, and only because the AI abusing.

It can be fixed. We told you some ideas, that how to fix it, you should think about it.
Please do not forget that we have lot of players who prefer the singleplayer part of the game.

I see 2 ways, that how to fix the singleplayer Arena AI abusing:

-Do not allow items in the arena
-Do not allow 'abuse items' in the arena, so items like a flaming sword should be allowed for example, but items with curse etc. shouldnt be allowed.etc..

(-In fact, if Doms would be a multiplayer game only, I wouldnt even buy it, since I do not really like multiplayer in any games. [Especially not in strategy games.]-)

The Arena fight is very good part of the game, but it must be fixed. Please support the offline players as well.

I doubt we will see eye to eye on this, but I do not agree the AI can be "abused totally" in SP. Nor do I think cheating is applicable unless you play multi player, if you 'cheat' against an AI the only person you might potentionally hurt is yourself.

You can at most screw with one of the AI players, since if you die you turn over your items or some of them to the AI, if you win there isnt a problem. You can only die once. So you can only give your items to one AI. This AI player might not even have sent a particularily valuable commander, it is not like it allways sends Pretenders in fact the AI does this in less than 25% of the cases even if it has a combat pretender. Even if you do land a cursed item on the opposite pretender this doesn't affect the AI in a big way, an AI is not clever enough to plan to use any of its particular units in a well thought through way. A cursed item might slightly dent its abilities but it will not affect it in a major way. And chances are that your cursed item ends up on a ordinary semi powerful commander like a Traitor Prince or Cataphract Commander. In which case the forging of the item probably has cost you more than it has cost your opponent AI.

So:
1: Cheating against the AI is moronic. You can allway choose not to do it. No one is hurt but you.
2: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating. You can only do this to one AI player in an event that occurs perhaps one or two times a game.
3: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, the chance that it will end up on an AI pretender or similar powerfull unit is not particularily high.
4: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, and you do manage to pass the item on to an enemy Pretender, the actual effect of the cheat is very small.

[ October 09, 2003, 13:22: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Truper:
Amen. It seems we have a lot of posters desperate to make mountains out of molehills.

at least the thread was useful for me, I just learnt a new english idiom!

[Zerger]

Originally posted by johan osterman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MStavros:Johan, let me ask you a question. Why do you support cheating? In singleplayer, the AI can be abused totally in the Arena fights.
Illwinter must fix this, since this is the most annoying cheat in Dominions I.
It is working in multiplayer, since you cannot abuse anything, but in singleplayer it is a bad part of the game, and only because the AI abusing.

It can be fixed. We told you some ideas, that how to fix it, you should think about it.
Please do not forget that we have lot of players who prefer the singleplayer part of the game.

I see 2 ways, that how to fix the singleplayer Arena AI abusing:

-Do not allow items in the arena
-Do not allow 'abuse items' in the arena, so items like a flaming sword should be allowed for example, but items with curse etc. shouldnt be allowed.etc..

(-In fact, if Doms would be a multiplayer game only, I wouldnt even buy it, since I do not really like multiplayer in any games. [Especially not in strategy games.]-)

The Arena fight is very good part of the game, but it must be fixed. Please support the offline players as well.

I doubt we will see eye to eye on this, but I do not agree the AI can be "abused totally" in SP. Nor do I think cheating is applicable unless you play multi player, if you 'cheat' against an AI the only person you might potentionally hurt is yourself.

You can at most screw with one of the AI players, since if you die you turn over your items or some of them to the AI, if you win there isnt a problem. You can only die once. So you can only give your items to one AI. This AI player might not even have sent a particularily valuable commander, it is not like it allways sends Pretenders in fact the AI does this in less than 25% of the cases even if it has a combat pretender. Even if you do land a cursed item on the opposite pretender this doesn't affect the AI in a big way, an AI is not clever enough to plan to use any of its particular units in a well thought through way. A cursed item might slightly dent its abilities but it will not affect it in a major way. And chances are that your cursed item ends up on a ordinary semi powerful commander like a Traitor Prince or Cataphract Commander. In which case the forging of the item probably has cost you more than it has cost your opponent AI.

So:
1: Cheating against the AI is moronic. You can allway choose not to do it. No one is hurt but you.
2: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating. You can only do this to one AI player in an event that occurs perhaps one or two times a game.
3: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, the chance that it will end up on an AI pretender or similar powerfull unit is not particularily high.
4: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, and you do manage to pass the item on to an enemy Pretender, the actual effect of the cheat is very small.

---

Errrr I agree with them Johan. Why Illwinter cannot fix this?
Simply don't allow those AI-cheating items, and we're all good. Don't tell me, that it is hard to add this script...


[ October 09, 2003, 14:31: Message edited by: Zerger ]

[PDF]

Originally posted by johan osterman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.

I agree with Något Gick Fel on this one. The arena is just intended as an amusing detail. Making the arena victory more rewarding or penalising people not participating would shift focus away from the core of the game, if either of the above where implemented it would force players into maximising a super combatant. I think it is better to keep it the way it is.

---

The problem is that it's not that amusing except the first fight ... The reward is not worth the risk taken by sending a real good commander.
So in SP you either pass on it or abuse it to screw AI pretender/prophet
In MP players either pass or send crap commanders...

Just putting more varied and valuable stuff as reward would make it much more "fun" without it becoming a real focus.
My 0.02 €

[st.patrik]

I can see it both ways. On the one hand, if there were such a death match and I didn't think I could win by fair play I would definitely want to take someone down with me. On the other hand, I can see the Arena Death Match Fairness Committee prohibiting the use of certain items - and so much the better if they did because then you might actually dare to try to win. I think it's a shame when no-one except the AI sends someone they think might win - makes it all a bit futile in MP.

If I was in charge of the Arena Death Match Improvement Committee I would outlaw the use of certain items - a short list of items officially considered to be 'cheats'. Ideally I would outlaw the use of certain spells too (like 'curse'), but that would be harder to control. I think I would also change the prize to a choice of a couple of different items, or failing that, an item more neutral - i.e. applicable to both mages and fighters, if such an item could be found (perhaps something like the Ankh, Nethgul, Alchemist's stone, The Magic Lamp, Gate Stone, or Flying Ship). Definitely I would make the item removeable, so that it could be put in a display case in the capital of the winner [though I realise that this is how the Last victor is found, in order to compete in the next arena death match].

Furthermore, I might subdivide the contest into different events - one for fighters with weapons, etc., one for fighters without special weapons, one for mages, one for archers, etc. But that would depend on popularity and funding, etc.

*edit - I think it would be pretty hard to implement, allowing certain items but not others. The only way I can think of would be flag the 'cheating' items somehow, and then have the program only offer the 'compete in arena death match' to people who were clean. Either that or have a dialogue come up saying that you have to unequip certain unlawful items, etc. when you try to compete while in the possession of Banned items

*further edit - Another thing I would outlaw were I in charge of the Improvement Committee is the entrance of pretenders - I think it ought to be non-divine commanders only. This would make it more competitive, rather than your knight commander having to face down a huge flaming skull, or undead manticore, or something like that.

[ October 09, 2003, 15:23: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

[licker]

My understanding of the issue with the AI here isn't that you can stick one of them with cursed items, but rather that each AI save one loses a commander automatically when the arena event occurs.

And sending the pretender 25% of the time... that sounds like alot to me, I don't really see it as a minor issue, not do I see it as 'cheating' I see it as a mechanism which the AI doesn't handle very well, and as such gets penelized.

How about just adding a switch to turn the silly thing off, if it is truely as unimportant as you say it is, then give the option to not use it in the first place.

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by PDF:
....So in SP you either pass on it or abuse it to screw AI pretender/prophet
In MP players either pass or send crap commanders...

I totally agree. That it why The Arena must be fixed. It is all about the items. Just do not allow the 'abuse items' in the Arena, thats all.
I hope that the devs see our point.