Glamour post 3.08

[Jazzepi]

I never play blitzes, although Hidden Signs ended up being one because of the tiny size of the map. I don't think the game was designed with them in mind, and their tendency towards bless rush is boring for me.

Jazzepi

[Micah]

OTOH keep in mind that Van and Hel have the worst researchers in the game. 3 RP for 160 gold, temple and lab both required...that's significantly worse than using shaman researchers. They need troops that are kind of unfairly good, because their ability to get to late-game magic is kind of unfairly bad. It's also hard to take magic-3 with a double bless.

MA Van having build-anywhere sacreds is kind of over the top with their raiding potential though, I'll certainly agree to that.

Vans and helhirds may be overpowered, and they're certainly going to put the hurt on people early on...small maps are a problem, but their nations' magic potential is fairly low...I think it might make for a more interesting nation if the sacreds got bumped down a bit but some better research options were available...perhaps the addition of philosopher-like serf mages, forbidden to cast spells (no paths) that are employed to help research, maybe 5 RP for 100 gold. (philosophers are 50 for 5 and benefit from sloth scales IIRC, so hopefully that's not stepping on Arco's toes too much, since they're twice the cost.)

Adding something like that in exchange for some of the sacreds' power would open up more magical options later in the game for the glam nations and give them a tradeoff, not just a straight nerf. It would also allow them to make more decisions about where to focus instead of having to go for the bless strat every time. I think it's the units that are the problem, not the nations as a whole.

[Velusion]

I'm still undecided about how the latest patch helps but...

I pretty much agree with Micah about the root cause. It's not that the heims are completely unbalanced over the course of the game it's just that they have such an overwhelming early game strength that the vast majority of defenders have almost no chance against them. That aspect of their "play style" is simply not fun - no matter which side you are on.

You should always have a decent chance to at least fight off a rush nation.

[Jazzepi]

Velusion said:
I'm still undecided about how the latest patch helps but...

I pretty much agree with Micah about the root cause. It's not that the heims are completely unbalanced over the course of the game it's just that they have such an overwhelming early game strength that the vast majority of defenders have almost no chance against them. That aspect of their "play style" is simply not fun - no matter which side you are on.

You should always have a decent chance to at least fight off a rush nation.

I agree with Velusion. I think the problem is that right now the nation is balanced for an entire game.

So your Vans might rush player A, and B, but then get crushed in the end game.

While this is fine for players C-F who didn't get rushed and still have a fair chance against them, but what ends up happening is that Vanheim is like this lottery ticket of death for 1-2 nations every time they get into a game with a bless rush strategy where there is no early game way to defend against it.

Jazzepi

[AreWeInsaneYet]

...Only if there wasn't a nation named Caelum.
Oh, wait, There is.

EA Caelum definitely rush better than Van, which you can try out in a game(few units work against early mammothes, those actually worked are very vulnerable to early LB & TS). The only reason they don't is that they simply could do better focus on long-term plan, which is what Van cannot.

Van rushes not because of they can, but because they must. That IS the van style, if you don't follow, you are nobody later.

Here goes a quotation from pre 308:

Unfortunately, this works just because it's Caelum - another superpower. Caelum is probably the only nation that is better at raiding than Helheim (some amphibian nations can be considered better at raiding if they play 1 vs 1 - but that's just because Helheim can't raid well underwater). Mobility-wise, Caelum is probably also the only nation that's better than Helheim (in mid-late game Mictlan probably can join the top in this area too). In terms of brute force on the battlefield, only few nations can match Helheim (and Caelum, of course, is one of them). I think that the only reason we don't hear that many complains about Caelum is because it requires noticably more competent play (than Helheim) to be efficient. But if Caelum is not rushed in the first 10 turns it will be very strong.

[Saint_Dude]

Velusion said:
You should always have a decent chance to at least fight off a rush nation.

That would be nice. But there are a number of nations (in addition to the vans) which can take out the majority of nations with an early bless rush irregardless of tactics.

Mictlan (all ages) - what do you do when you find out you have Mictlan as a neighbor on turn 5, and then are rushed by 50 dual blessed jags (and assorted chaff) on turn 7?

EA Niefelheim - what exactly is the early counter for blessed niefels? They eat vans for a light snack. Abysia can stand up to them, but who else?

MA Ermor - shadow vestals are nearly as cheap as jags and more resistant to counters such as massed archers. Depending on priests to save your bacon is laughable.

EA Pangaea and Lanka, and MA Marignon, Machaka and Jotunheim, - can also put together a pretty brutal rush. Better have your own bless strategy working or an awake SC pretender, or these nations will eat your lunch early on.

In short, nations with good sacreds and a good bless tend to eat their immediate neighbors in the early stages. The Vans are not unique.

[vfb]

Vanheim in LA (Midgard) also has got a nice turn 8, 200-unit skinshifter rush, as an alternative to a Van rush. Or so I hear.

[Jazzepi]

vfb said:
Vanheim in LA (Midgard) also has got a nice turn 8, 200-unit skinshifter rush, as an alternative to a Van rush. Or so I hear.

Nobody suspects the werewolves.

Seriously though, I think the amazing scales + werewolves rush is a great tactic and I was very pleased that I randomly got Midgard so I could try it again. 40 werewolves can take on any neutral province, so you can expand like crazy, and you just roll over whomever doesn't have archers. Even with archers, you have early access to mist, yay!

Jazzepi

[vfb]

If you hadn't been swamped by a whole bunch of nations, you might even have had a chance to test that out! Midgard has loads of Air gems, so even an A2 Galderman can use an extra gem and cast it, right?

And does Storm stack with Mist?

Edit: Nothing to stop MA Van from doing the same with a Vanjarl. All the anti-glamor arrows discussion assumes you're not also casting Mist, right?

[Velusion]

Saint_Dude said:
That would be nice. But there are a number of nations (in addition to the vans) which can take out the majority of nations with an early bless rush irregardless of tactics.

....

In short, nations with good sacreds and a good bless tend to eat their immediate neighbors in the early stages. The Vans are not unique.

Sure you can design many nations to be a bless rush nation that will very likely be able to defeat another non-bless rush nations early - but thats like saying "you're probably going to die" compared to "you are going to die".

No other nation can turn out troops as powerful (aka invincible) in MA as Vanheim on turn 1. MA Ermor is very potent (probably too potent) - but at least they HAVE a weakness... even if it isn't easily exploitable. The fact that you can't even effectively counter-raid Vanheim is the last nail in the frustration/helpless coffin.

At least I feel like I have a small chance against Neifiel MA Ermor or Lanka - whereby I feel almost completely helpless against a W9/F9 MA Vanheim. (and I've been on the receiving end of all except Lanka)

The only other comparable frustration IMHO is the "elephants vs. all infantry non-bless rush nation" scenario... but that's a whole other problem - and limited to very specific nations vs. a limited few other nations.