German OOB 16: minor corrections

[BigDuke66]

A check I made showed that the unit 648 still has radio 83, wasn't it meant to be changed?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...3&postcount=23

[DRG]

That radio code would only cause the AI to skip over this unit IF the AI bought a formation that used unit 648's unitclass but the AI does not buy any of those formations when it picks an opposing force so the radio code in this case is totally irrelevant

Don

[Pibwl]

Hello,

Sorry to bother you so quickly, but I've found a quite important bug, concerning the most popular German tank in 1939. Now, unit 002 can't be bought in 1939 at all and we have only pre-series Pz II a/b/c with weaker armour and rare Pz II D available then.

002 PzKw II C - it should be available from 1937, as in a previous release (in fact, II C entered production in 6/38, but it could represent all "standard model" II A/B/C, produced from 7/37).
BTW, hull armour was 14.5mm all around in fact.

005 PzKw II J - it has radio=82 in the game, while there were only 22 made - very rare specialized recce tank.

215 PzKw II D - very rare variant (43 made), radio=3 would be more appropriate (Jentz/Doyle write, that there it is unclear, if they saw action at all). Hull sides and rear were 14.5mm in fact (front was 30 mm).

388 PzKw II C - now it's available since 1/41, and differs from 002 with KwK38 gun only. It should rather represent the most common model during French campaign, with 20mm applique armour in hull's and turret's front. Basic armour was 14.5mm all around. Also, Jentz/Doyle mention only KwK30 guns as an armament of Pz II C, so it might be rearmed this way (like unit 002), uparmoured and made available from 5/40.

834 PzKw II a/b/c - entered service in spring of 1936 according to Jentz/Doyle (produced from 5/36) (now: 7/37). It might have been confused with standard A/B/C, but a picture and weak armour indicate pre-series a/b/c (in fact, c had a new suspension, but tactically it was the same).
It was rare variant, and radio=1 would be more appropriate (now radio=2) - there were 75 a, 25 b and a small number of c, comparing to over 1000 A/B/C.

BTW: weapons 88 PzB 39 ATR and 137 PzB M.SS.41 have amazing accuracy of 34, much better then other AT rifles - is it justified? The later one also has warhead=2, while it should be 1 (7.62mm)

Michal

[DRG]

Have I not made it clear enough that we have no intention of issuing any patch or correction any time soon Michal ? So yes, all you've done is "bother me so quickly" for no purpose and I have no intention of reply to any of this because I have MORE THAN ENOUGH REAL LIFE ISSUES TO DEAL WITH ATM........ to sit down and start going though another one of your lists so end it now

I cannot even begin to tell you politely how both Andy and I feel about the incessant OOB nit picking that went on before the last patch so DO NOT even think about starting up again.

Don

[PvtJoker]

Michal, I suggest you put the corrections you suggested in a custom OOB and publish it in the mods section for us rivet counters to enjoy. I agree that the lack of major production models of the Pz II in 1939 is a somewhat significant problem for historical accuracy, but now it is not the time to make corrections or suggestions to the official OOBs.

I believe Don said earlier that we should consider the official OOBs closed until he explicitly states that suggestions can be submitted again, which may take a while, or even longer ( ).

Thanks Andy & Don again for this great game and Don, I sincerely hope your real life issues will all be solved for the best.

[Pibwl]

Forgive me, Don, I only wanted to point out an omission of Pz II C in 1939 (which must be an accident, since it was OK in ver.6), and I got carried away a bit...

Of course, it's up to you, if you want to do anything with it (I know it's complicated) or live with it as for now. I also think you do a great work.

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Michal, I suggest you put the corrections you suggested in a custom OOB and publish it in the mods section for us rivet counters to enjoy. ...

Thanks for an encouragement, but I'm afraid, that few people would be interested in installing non-standard oobs, especially, that it'll have only some "cosmetic" changes, without new equipment... (though a Dicker Max could be added?...) Also, I have more work with pictures as for now (and little free time). I guess I'll wait for your Italian OOB first - or we might even kind of cooperate?...

Michal

[Mario_Fr]

I`ve seen some small errors on some german planes, so I will collect them here.

I know that the new patch v.8 is just around the corner, so this is not meant to be considered in this patch, but rather the next one.

I`ll begin with the Fw 190.

The Fw 190 had a standard armament of 2x 7.92mm MG 17 in the cowling, two MG 151/20 in the inner wing section and two 2x MG FF 20mm in the outer wing section. Ammo was some 800 rounds for the MG`s, 250 for the MG 151 and 60 to 90 for the MG FF.

Beginning with the A-6 the outer MG FF were replaced with MG 151/20 with 125 rounds, beginning with the A-7 the MG 17 was replaced with the 13mm MG 131 with 475 rounds.

All the F-Series had the outer MG FF removed, the G-Series only had the two MG 151/20 in the inner wing section and also the cowling MG removed. The F-1 and G-1 was based on the A-4, the F-2 on the A-5, the F-3 on the A-6 and only with the F-8 and G-8 the numbers are corresponding with the A-numbers (F-8 based on A-8, F-9 on A-9).
The A-seriens with the various U-numbers (for german Umbau) also had the outer MG FF removed, but of course all A-series as standard fighter versions could be equipped with a single 250 kg bomb in the centreline, beginning with the A-5 also with a single 500 kg bomb.

As for the bomb loadout:
All A`s could carry a single 250 kg bomb
Beginning with the A-6 also one 500 kg bomb

The F-1 and F-2 could carry one 250 kg bomb or one 500 kg bomb or 4 50 kg bombs in the centreline
Beginning with the F-3 it could also be fitted with two 50 kg bombs under each wing (so 1x 250/500 kg bomb and 4x 50 kg bomb or 8x 50 kg bombs)
The F-8 could mount up to 250 kg under the wings (3x 250 kg bombs or 2x 250kg bombs under the wings and one 500kg bomb in the centreline; also it was possible to mount a single 1000 kg bomb and even a 1800 kg bomb in the centreline (no bombs under the wings then).
The G-Series was a long range version which from the G-1 usually had two drop tanks under each wing; beginning with the G-3 it could be mounted with bombs under the wings instead (3x 250 or 2x 250 and 1x 500kg e.g.) The G-8 could mount the same loadout as the F-8. ALL G models only had 2 MG 151/20!!

So actually all Fw 190 in the game have some smaller issues, may it the cannon or MG armament or the bomb loadout.

introducing dates:
A-3 early 42
A-4 07/42
A-5 11/42 (F-1 and F-2 02/43)
A-6 05/43
A-8 12/43 (F-8 02/44)

The Bf 109:

The D model is correct, but the whole E-series (beginning with the E-3) had two 7.92 MG 17 in the cowling with 1000 rounds and two MG FF with 60 rounds in the wings.
The F-series should have two MG 17 with 500 rounds and one MG 151 with 200 rounds with a motor mount cannon. (originally the F-2 had a MG 151/15mm which is not modeled in the game but this was field moded to the MG 151/20 later; the F-4 always had the MG 151/20).
The G-2 had the same armament as the F-series, only with the G-5 the MG 17 were replaced with the 13mm MG 131 (400 rounds)

No Bf 109 could carry a 500 kg bomb, only 250 kg or 4x 50 kg bombs.
Beginning with the F-4 it was possible to mount gun pods under the wing (one MG 151/20 with 135 rounds under each wing), but only beginning with the G-6 these could be also 30mm MK 108 with 35 rounds each.
Some G-6 were equipped with the 30mm MK 108 with 65 rounds instead of the MG 151/20

There were relative few occasions were F or G models had to fly ground attack missions, but the E-7/B was a designated ground attack version which was used until the end of 42, before these unit (Schlachtgeschwader 1, before that elements of II./LG 1) converted to the Fw 190.

Cheers

@Don and Andy. Thank you for your great work.

[Mario_Fr]

Maybe my last post was not that usefull, lacking specific hints on how to change the units. So I make up for it now.

But first some remarks on specific weapons that are used in the OOB for the Fw 190 right now.
#237 Fw 190 F-8 (weapon 3 30mm MK 101). According to Heinz Nowarra, Focke Wulf Fw 190 - Ta 152 only two prototypes were build mounting the MK 108 (Fw 190 F-8/R2) and two mounting the MK 103 (F-8/R3).

#912 Fw 190A-3/U2 (weapon 3 and 4 RZ 65 rocket). As far as I know only test trials were made, but the project with the RZ 65 was abandoned. Also it was intended to be an air-air rocket.

#914 Fw 190R-6 (weapon 3 and 4 Werfrgranate 21 (misspelled!! It`s Werfergranate (Wfrgr or Werfergr), first mounted on the A-7/R6 (all R and U nimbers don`t have a hyphen), was mainly used to break up bomber formations. Because of it`s low muzzle velocity the trajectory was not flat and aiming was difficult. They were very very seldom used for ground attack.

#915 Fw 190F-8/R1 (weapon 3 and 4 RackPzgr 8.8cm). As far as I know these were only trials but never got to front line use.

Suggestion:
The Fw 190 was extensivly used in the ground attack role and could carry a wide spectrum of bomb loadouts. It would be better to represent this in the game instead of having 4 curiosities and test trial versions (in addition also the #916 and #917 mounting the Panzerblitz I and II are very rare variants that appeared only in few numbers in late 1944).

My suggestion is to have two fighter versions in the game (full gun and cannon armament) and all the rest dedicated ground attack versions. By this all the various bomb loadouts could be respresented. The ground attack version (F and G series) had additional armor and should have an better value than the A models. Listed by date of availability.

#237 Fw 190 A-4
2x 7.92mm MG 17 850 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
2x 20mm MG FF 60 rounds
1x 250kg bomb
available 10/42 (The first Fw 190 appeared in October 42 with JG 51 on the Eastern Front, while only in 02/43 the first Fw 190 were sent to North Africa. So actually there is no need to have them earlier in the game because were have no scenario Cliffs of Dover were of course the Fw 190 appeared in small numbers already in 1941 - beginning with 10.03.42 they were also used as ground attack fighters)

#913 Fw 190F-1
2x 7.92mm MG 17 850 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
4x 50kg bombs
4x 50kg bombs
available 02/43

#236 Fw 190F-2
2x 7.92mm MG 17 850 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
1x 500kg bomb
available 02/43

#911 Fw 190F-3
2x 7.92mm MG 17 850 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
1x 500kg bomb
4x 50kg bombs
available 06/43

#242 Fw 190F-3
2x 7.92mm MG 17 850 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
2x SD2 HE Bomblets
available 06/43

#912 Fw 190G-3
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
1x 250kg bomb
2x 250kg bomb
available 06/43

#121 Fw 190 A-8
2x 13mm MG 131 475 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 125 rounds
1x 500kg bomb
available 12/43

#914 Fw 190F-8
2x 13mm MG 131 475 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
1x 500kg bomb
2x 250kg bombs
available 02/44

#915 Fw 190F-8
2x 13mm MG 131 475 rounds
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds
1x 1000kg bomb
available 02/44


The Bf 109:

The same here. #122 can be dropped (no 109 ever had a 30mm MK 101, only the MK 108 beginning with the G-6; the MK 101 weighted 139kg, the MK 103 141kg, both guns were much too large and way too heavy, so only the MK 108 which was 58kg, could be used)

Also #909 with the RZ 65 rocket was never used (see above)

Suggestions:

#905 Bf 109D or E-1
4x 7.92mm MG 17
no bombs (bomb racks were only fitted after the Battle of Britain in autumn of 1940)

#906 Bf 109E-3
2x 7.92mm MG 17 1000 rounds
2x 20mm MG FF 60 rounds
no bombs
available 09/39

#907 Bf 109E-7/B (dedicated ground attack version, used until the end of 42)
2x 7.92mm MG 17 1000 rounds
2x 20mm MG FF 60 rounds
1x 250kg bomb
available 10/40 - 12/42

#908
907 Bf 109E-7/B
2x 7.92mm MG 17 1000 rounds
2x 20mm MG FF 60 rounds
4x 50kg bomb
available 10/40 - 12/42

#909 Bf 109F-4
2x 7.92mm MG 17 500 rounds
1x 20mm MG 151 200 rounds
1x 250kg bomb
available 01/42

#122 Bf 109G-6
2x 13mm MG 131 400 rounds
1x 20mm MG 151 200 rounds
1x 500kg bomb
available 03/43

Cheers

[Mario_Fr]

Now the Hs 123:

The Hs 123 could carry one 250 kg bomb underneath the fuselage and two 50kg bomb under each wing = up to 450 kg of bombs.
As far as I know there was no 120kg bomb in the german arsenal like it is now in the OOB.

#349 has two 20mm MG 151 which has to be changed to MG FF, but anyway this was only a field mod and very seldom used. The standard armament was only two 7.92mm MG 17 with 500 rounds each in foward fuselage.


Hs 129:

B-1 and B-2 differed only in the fuel system, but only 70 B-1 were built, before production was switched to the B-2 in 05/42. Later in the war the usual 7.92mm MG 17 were exchanged for the 13mm MG 131 but this was only done sporadically.

All Hs 129 could carry one 50kg bomb under each wing (or SD 2 or SD 4 bomblets). Additionally different Rüstsätze could be added under the fuselage:

R1 4x 50kg bombs / 4x SD2 or SD4 bomblets /1x 250kg bomb
R2 30mm MK 101 / MK 103 (B-2)
R3 4x 7.92mm MG 17 with 1000 rounds each
Wa 1x 3.7cm BK 37 (as Ju 87 G-1)

Suggestions:

#128 Hs 129B-2/R2
2x 7.92mm MG 17 1000 rounds each
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds each
1x MK 101 30 rounds
2x 50kg bombs
available 05/42

#130 Hs 129B-2/R1
2x 7.92mm MG 17 1000 rounds each
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds each
4x SD2 bomblets
2x SD2 bomblets
available 06/42

#240 Hs 129B-2/R1
2x 7.92mm MG 17 1000 rounds each
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds each
4x SD4 bomblets
2x SD4 bomblets
available 06/42

#900 Hs 129B-2/R1
2x 7.92mm MG 17 1000 rounds each
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds each
1x 250kg bomb
2x 50kg bombs
available 06/42

or

#900 Hs 129B-2/Wa
2x 7.92mm MG 17 1000 rounds each
2x 20mm MG 151 250 rounds each
1x 3.7cm BK 37 12 rounds
available early 43

As a consequence weapon number 210 (7.5cm LW40) could be dropped and number 173 (Werfrgranate 8r) as well. Also I really don`t know what these weapons are. The LW 40 seem to be a variant of the 75mm BK and the Werfergranate 8r is a russian rocket?? (the BM-8 maybe or the 8cm granade of the GrW 34) ?

Cheers

[scorpio_rocks]

Wasn't the Rüstsatz 6 (R6) modification the Werfergranate?
Sometimes refered to as BR 21, a version of the 21cm Nebelwerfer rocket mounted on aircraft (notably FW-190) to attack USAF Bomber "boxes". http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugkorper/wgr21.htm (in german). Or am I way off base here?