Highliner Mod - 1.04b - PBW Observations & Patch

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by Taz-in-Space:
Taz sees the Highliner Mod and grabs it!

New Toys!
NEW Toys!
NEW TOYS!

&#1 Taz hangs out a NO DISTURB sign...&#1

When you get done with it, PLEASE post your observations here. Whatever you find - bugs, strategies, suggestions, complaints, praises - post it so I can improve the Mod. Thanks.

[Loser]

Thank you, General.

Have you confirmed that the Point Defense, Medical Bays and Mine Sweepers actually function on Units?

What about Phased Shields, Solar Panels, Quantum Reactors, Regenerating Armor, single-weapon To-Hit bonus (ala WMG) and all forms of Special Damage (Engine, Shield, Armor, Master Computer, Weapon, Weapon rate delay, Allegiance Subverter, and Shield/Armor skipping)?

Were you able to try any of those? Does the Highliner Mod implement any of those special features?

[edit: I forgot that Units don't use experience. Didn't need to ask about Neural Networks.]

[ June 23, 2003, 15:33: Message edited by: Loser ]

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by Loser:
Thank you, General.

Have you confirmed that the Point Defense, Medical Bays and Mine Sweepers actually function on Units?

What about Phased Shields, Solar Panels, Quantum Reactors, Regenerating Armor, single-weapon To-Hit bonus (ala WMG) and all forms of Special Damage (Engine, Shield, Armor, Master Computer, Weapon, Weapon rate delay, Allegiance Subverter, and Shield/Armor skipping)?

Were you able to try any of those? Does the Highliner Mod implement any of those special features?

Results so far are mixed.

I haven't had any mine combats yet, so the sweepers are still an unknown factor. Same thing with medical facilities & plagues.

Unit combat is much more "hidden" than ship combat (shields & damage are computed out-of-sight, as it were), so the effects of regenerating armor & shields, special weapons, etc, are difficult to ascertain.

For purposes of game scale and mechanics, I kept Quantum Reactors and Solar Panels as strictly Highliner/Ship components - so I don't know if they would work on units. I could experiment with them, but even if they did work I would not put them on units because I don't think it fits the parameters of space travel I had in mind for this mod.

Weapon Rate Delay and Allegence converters both work on units - that's confirmed.

More results to come as the test games proceed.

[Loser]

Since Units do not respond to damage, at all, until their entire structure has been destroyed any sort of X only Weapon would be almost completely ineffective against other Units.

I forgot to mention Plagues, Radiation, and Smart Weapons in the X only Weapon list. But since it's targeting something other than a Rider I think it would work. The same should be true for other X only Weapons: they could be used against Highliners, but not other Rider.

As I understand it, both Armor and Shields on a Unit just add to its total Hit Points (kilotons). The only difference is that you get an little animation when you hit Shields.

Perhaps regeneration would still work, though. It could be tested, as well. Design a Rider with enough regenerating Armor to 'soak' 5 kt of damage per round and a weapon that only does 1 kt of damage. Switch over to another empire and there design a Rider of roughly equal Hit Points with a weapon that does 5 kt of damage. Run a simulation between them and see who wins.

Another thought. While Shield-skipping weapons could still destroy all the Hit Points of a Unit, I don't think Armor-skipping weapons could. Since the Armor-skipping weapon does not hit Armor it will never destroy the whole Unit.

Weapon rate delay works when fired from a Unit at a Ship, I think, but does it work against other Units?

I seem to recall (perhaps from this very thread) that Allegiance Converters will work from a Unit against a Ship, but I don't think they work against other Units. There's your Boarding Party, but there is not way to Security Station against it. I think this would be an unbalancing element, since any Highliner could be easily lost to a stack of Boarding Riders (but it's your mod, of course).

I think I see what you mean about the Supply-related components. Since they're not traveling between systems, anyway, I don't suppose the Riders will have great need of endless Supplies. Or perhaps, for that very reason, they should have more limited Supplies, much like Fighters.

[ June 23, 2003, 21:44: Message edited by: Loser ]

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by Loser:
Since Units do not respond to damage, at all, until their entire structure has been destroyed any sort of X only Weapon would be almost completely ineffective against other Units.
The same should be true for other X only Weapons: they could be used against Highliners, but not other Unit-Ships.

This is true in the abstract. But the way I modded the weapons, most weapons can hit any target, so while they may be more effective against one or the other, they will work on all to some degree, and it's simply a matter of designing Riders that are optimized to specific tasks. Not that I didn't make some weapons effective only against one type of ship or the other - but you'll have to play the Mod to find out which...

I forgot to mention Plagues, Radiation, and Smart Weapons in the X only Weapon list. But since it's targeting something other than a Unit-Ship I think it would work..

Again, this hasn't yet occured in the test games, but I don't see any reason why anti-planet weapons won't work from Riders.

As I understand it, both Armor and Shields on a Unit just add to its total Hit Points (kilotons). The only difference is that you get an little animation when you hit Shields.
Perhaps regeneration would still work, though. It could be tested, as well. Design a Unit-Ship with enough regenerating Armor to 'soak' 5 kt of damage per round and a weapon that only does 1 kt of damage. Switch over to another empire and there design a Unit-Ship of roughly equal Hit Points with a weapon that does 5 kt of damage. Run a simulation between them and see who wins.

I'm in the middle of just such a task right now.

Another thought. While Shield-skipping weapons could still destroy all the Hit Points of a Unit, I don't think Armor-skipping weapons could. Since the Armor-skipping weapon does not hit Armor it will never destroy the whole Unit..

This is something to keen an eye on for later revisions, but I'm trying to stick with more basic questions at these early stages. Such as...

Weapon rate delay works when fired from a Unit at a Ship, I think, but does it work against other Units?

Definitely. That's already been determined in my alpha tests.

I seem to recall (perhaps from this very thread) that Allegiance Converters will work from a Unit against a Ship, but I don't think they work against other Units. There's your Boarding Party, but there is not way to Security Station against it. I think this would be an unbalancing element, since any Highliner could be easily lost to a stack of Boarding Unit-Ships (but it's your mod, of course).

This was something else I gave a pass on, using "mod scale" as my out. Allegence Converters can only be mounted on Highliners and Bases.

I think I see what you mean about the Supply-related components. Since they're not traveling between systems, anyway, I don't suppose the Unit-Ships will have great need of endless Supplies. Or perhaps, for that very reason, they should have more limited Supplies, much like Fighters.

Again, the "intended scale" factor comes in. Highliners have the size and complexity to handle long-term space environments for their crew - Riders do not. Thus I envisioned Riders as short-range (and short-duration) ships, and jacked up the supply cost per turn.

My biggest fear (in actual playtesting by people) is that some joker would create googobs of Riders and park them in the orbit above his planets, thus sidestepping the cargo-on-planet limitations. That's another reason why I made the supply-cost-per-turn for Riders/"fighters" so high. They'll have to come down to resupply sometime, somewhere, or you lose them. This way, it's sooner rather than later, and it'll make it that much harder to pull off a stunt like this.

[Loser]

Thank you.

"Riders", yes.... I think I'll go back and correct my terminology in my Last post. "Unit-Ships"? I was really reaching there.

[Mathias_Ice]

I would very much like to try this mod, but my problem is this (and I searched the forums for an answer but to no avail): How do you combine Mods? I have tried before but had no luck. Maybe a step-by-step answer could be posted to the FAQ as combining mods seems to be a fairly common thing.

Thanks,
Mathias Ice

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by Mathias_Ice:
I would very much like to try this mod, but my problem is this (and I searched the forums for an answer but to no avail): How do you combine Mods? I have tried before but had no luck. Maybe a step-by-step answer could be posted to the FAQ as combining mods seems to be a fairly common thing.

Thanks,
Mathias Ice

I assume you're talking about the Image and Neo-standard Mods I reference, right?

If so, no problem. These "mods" are just large Groups of new images for components, facilities, ships, etc. My mod is entirely datafiles (the only images I include that overwrite existing ones are the intro screens; my extra ship images load into a separate folder). It shouldn't even matter what order you load them in. Just 1) load SEIV off the disc into a new folder; 2) update it to 1.84; then 3) load the Image modpacks, the Neo-Standard ship pack, and my Mod in whatever order. You should then be good to go.

Combining my mod with other mods with major data changes (Proportions, AIC, etc.) is not possible - but that goes for trying to combine any mods of this type. You'd have to go through the data files for *both* mods and reconcile the differences, tweak the AIs to handle them, ad infinitum ad nauseam - and then you'd have a third (and entirely different) mod (not to mention questions about infringement of intellectual property).

EDIT - Clarified loading instructions

[ June 24, 2003, 01:42: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by Loser:
Another thought. While Shield-skipping weapons could still destroy all the Hit Points of a Unit, I don't think Armor-skipping weapons could. Since the Armor-skipping weapon does not hit Armor it will never destroy the whole Unit.

Armor skipping weapons go back and hit armor once everything else is gone on ships. Don't know about units though.

[ June 24, 2003, 00:15: Message edited by: cybersol ]

[Fyron]

Units do not have an "armor" layer. Armor components on a unit simply add to the HP total, nothing more. Armor skipping weapons do not skip armor on a unit, as there is no "armor" to skip.