PBW PvK Proportions Game #2

[csebal]

I kinda like the idea of CWCCs, they are the Last step of making a new planet truly part of my culture for me.

As for myself, i always modded my own proportions, to make CWCC the Last colonial step after arcology, with a cost of 650k resources, and somewhat reduced stats to be in-line with the cost/stats of other facilities.

I think CWCCs could stay in 3.0 as well, but they should have lower cost and lower stats. They could be given the same tech reqs as arcologies, with higher construction and industry levels

[PvK]

Thanks very much to all of you for your enthusiastic comments and questions and suggestions on the mod! It's very nice, and I do appreciate both cheers and frowns.

It seems to be about time for me to re-state some of the reasons for the values of the large cultural facilities.

In 3.0 there are two kinds of Cultural Center, homeworld and colony. In 2.5 there were as well, but they were identical except in name. In 3.0, the colony Version costs a lot less (2.4 million x 3 types) while the homeworld Version costs 4 million x 3 types, and has even better values.

As in earlier Versions, these costs are so high because you are NOT supposed to consider building them, unless you are trying an extreme stategy or an extremely long-term (and peaceful) game. In fact, the main reason they used to cost so LITTLE, was because when you started with a bunch of them, you might consider SCRAPPING one for the resources (which more than one player has done when they failed to manage their budget properly).

With one available at 2.4 (x3) million, however, it is possible to consider actually building one as a long-term strategy or goal, which is kind of an amusing tease, so I have left that in.

To explain further, Proportions is kind of a counterpoint to the things that don't make sense in the default game mechanics. One main thing that does not make sense is the way that research facilities add directly to one giant empire research pool. That only makes sense for something like a big basic computer problem that is already understood and can be divided amongst computers. Real estate space is not the obstacle to research rate, but the stock game makes it so. So the point of a cultural center is that it should be unique to the homeworld and NOT reproducable... or at least, not without extreme difficulty. Creating a new CC does not represent simply building up a new planetary infrastructure, but also developing new technologies that work well on a completely alien planet (with different gravity, pressure, atmosphere, flora and fauna, weather, temperature, seasons, etc), and perhaps even more importantly, developing a new _civilization_ which is different enough from your original civilization, to see things from a different perspective, so that it can in fact make a huge increase to your empire's abilities, beyond just adding some more factories and labs.

So that's basically why Cultural Centers are nearly unbuildable, on purpose.

Arcologies are massive undertakings themselves, vast pinacles of futuristic community construction, so it makes sense that they take at least 10 years or so to build on a good planet without miraculous technology and/or many millions of people or droids hard at work. On a good planet, they will eventually be worth it, too, especially thanks to the multipliers, but again it is a big investment of time and research. Perhaps unwise to do during war time... unless it will be a 20-year war or a low-intensity one. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will an arcology be.

Again, these things are included as the far end of the spectrum of short- to long-term non-military investments. They are not supposed to be done routinely, and they are not supposed to necessarily be a good idea, especially in a crisis. An MP game of Proportions should probably generally represent something of a time of crisis. Starting on a new map without running any turns for history, it represents the initial wave of expansion and colonization by several empires at the same time. The priority is probably to claim as much territory as possible, and perhaps to conquer an alien homeworld or establish an alliance to guarantee that the future will turn out well. Building new civilizations or wonders of architecture may not be the wisest investment during such a time. That's not a reason to not include them as a possible choice, however.

The intermediate cultural facilities offer a spectrum of investment levels to choose between, and I think now with the multipliers, there are now much better (and in fact, good) reasons to consider some which were of more dubious value in 2.5. For particular examples, the Settlements and Communities used to be kind of cheap but not very helpful in 2.5, but in 3.0 their multipliers offer a good reason to use them on production or research colonies that in 2.5 might not have wanted any cultural facility, and they also offer Organic multipliers which the _urban_ cultural facilities do not. The increased scarcity and needs for Organics in 3.0 also make Agrarian facilities much more desirable than in 2.5.

Similarly, some of the higher technology items may also turn out to be very inefficient investments in most cases. Again, this is intentional. Not every new invention makes older designs obsolete, or is the best thing to use. Some inventions may offer unique abilities, but be impractically expensive or large or whatever. But the option remains, and in some cases, items which seem pointless may find situations where they can be put to good use, or provide a solution that would otherwise be impossible. Players should find many more occasions to think about what levels of technology to develop and to deploy, instead of simply in what order to max out which technology, as is often the case in the unmodded game.

I hope that helps explain and makes good clear sense.

(Also, I hope people are planning to continue playing after SEV comes out.)

PvK

[Hippocrates]

Well, i like the slower pace as well, but i dont see a point in having anything in the game that costs 200+ turns to build, even with the highest tech available.

I just mentioned, that there is a reasonable timeframe for constructing buildings, and they should all fit into that timeframe using the tech level players will most probably have by the time they are supposed to use the building.

See, if a metropolis takes 50 turns to build with top level construction facilities, then and i dont think many will build it, not to mention, that by the time you'll have that top level construction stuff, you could/should care about arcologies instead.

So lets make it clear, i dont want to make things build in a turn or a year, but i dont see a point in having my facility list cluttered with stuff, that takes so long, se5 comes out by the time it gets even near completion.

Thats my point.
Then again, there are two other aspects:
- First, i realize that im just one of the many Users of this mod, so my opinion weights little on the global scale.
- Then there is the 2nd Proportions game on PBW, which i would really like to begin ASAP, so it may not be the time to make ground breaking changes to the mod.

Lets just say, i keep throwing up ideas and comments like this hoping, that they help to make the mod better. Arguing about it can make the mod better as well, as it gives PvK more opinions to base his choices on.

Thats it on my side.

Hey csebal,

You misunderstood - I agree with you on most of what you said. Rather, my comments were directed towards your earlier observation that Arcologies would offer 200% research bonuses, allowing for 3x normal research on a colony. I was simply commenting on how I liked the current proportions numbers for research and mineral production.

-Hippo

[PvK]

Well, in my mind, the multiplier and increased stats of the colonial facilities represent the many offices and labs helped by the well devleoped infrastructure.

It would seem odd that a homeworld would have lots of research labs, but not a single intelligence agency office anywhere, thats why it seems reasonable to have intel bonus as well.

I see. Yes, the homeworld and cities represent not only offices and infrastructure, but the many complex advantages of a livable environment, civilization, etc. Good luck getting your best scientists to be happy about shipping out and working on Outer Pudab VIII, in an office inside a pressure dome where the days are 20 years long, and the nearest civilization is months away by spaceship. Also, their ability to colaborate with their peers throughout the empire (without being intercepted) will be reduced.

The Cultural Centers do include intelligence agencies of some sort, represented by their intrinsic generation. Also it occurs to me that the larger a civilian presence on a colony, the easier it will be for agents to hide and observe things and plot and so on. So I see such facilities as a disadvantage to intel operations, as well as an advantage. That didn't used to seem representable in SE4, but maybe there is a way in 1.91. Hmm. Anyway I will take a look and see.

Not to mention game balance, as those who focus on intel could also benefit from these buildings then, not only those who focus on research.

Yes, though I find it interesting that Intel facilities are currently something that work about like they used to in the old game - if you put a lot of them on colonies, you can get strong intel forces, but especially in the preview 3.0, it makes sense to put them on the lesser-developed planets - covert bases and all that.

...
I think there should be a bigger difference between spaceport Versions and normal ones

I don't see why. Spaceport Versions represent planning and co-location, not more developed urban facilities. The big advantage is they save you two slots on the planet, which can then be used for other things which can be helped by the urban facility's modifiers, etc. It requires longer to build them, though, and so there are planning and efficiency considerations, depending on what you build on the planet and in what order. But since you can have either one Spaceport City facility, or a Spaceport facility and a Resupply facility and a City facility, for essentially the same time and cost, and they represent the same things, only arranged differently, I don't see how it would make sense to give the Spaceport Cities much advantage in performance over a city. I just gave them a +1 or so to add a little detail/interest, to represent the slight effect of convenient colocation, desirability, attention, whatever.

PvK

[PvK]

Hippocrates said:

...
That's partly the point - I liked the slower pace
I always felt that the stock game allowed or the generation of too many minerals and reserach points too quickly. I'm just pointing out that I hope the new values don't "speed things up" a manner drasticaly faster than 2.5 (I found the pacing there exquisite).
...

I like the 2.5 pacing too. I think the net effect will be similar. Remember it takes a LONG time to build an arcology. The new values do allow a lot more production and research on both colonies on the homeworld, however there are also several things that slow this down:

* Maximum trade income is halved. This used to often be a major part of an empire's income and research, and still will be, but it's about half as strong now.

* Most research costs are up about 50% or in some cases much more, and extend to higher levels, and/or were split into multiple tech areas.

* Many of the larger facilities and components now cost more, and especially more rads and orgs, and org and rad production on the homeworld is rather less than it was in 2.5, so they will become more valuable earlier on.

* With the halved org and rad construction rates, most of the cultural facilities can take about twice as long to build.

So some things have been multiplied up, while others have been divided down. Net result will be faster in some ways, slower in others, and with I think more range for different approaches.

PvK

[csebal]

Before reading trough the new Posts, here is it..

i was playing with the preview, then i just figured it out:

- research center II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 2 => 1
Computers 0 => 2
- research center III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 3 => 1
Computers 0 => 4

- research complex I
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 0 => 1
- research complex II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 1 => 3
- research complex III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 2 => 5

- research megaplex I
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
- research megaplex II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
Industry 2 => 3
Computers 2 => 4
- research megaplex III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
Industry 2 => 4
Computers 2 => 6

This is how i think the research requirements for research facilities could be changed.

As you can, see, all the research facilities are now research lvl1, all complexes lvl2, and all megaplexes are lvl3. The industry and computers research levels allow for the improved Versions of each... this would balance out research somewhat, making it look like actual advancement, instead of receiving both complex 3 and megaplex 3 once you've researched research 3.

Well, its kinda late here, so in case im not clear enough, just tell, and i'll try to explain it this morning.

[csebal]

[quote:PvK]

...
I think there should be a bigger difference between spaceport Versions and normal ones

I don't see why. Spaceport Versions represent planning and co-location, not more developed urban facilities. The big advantage is they save you two slots on the planet, which can then be used for other things which can be helped by the urban facility's modifiers, etc. It requires longer to build them, though, and so there are planning and efficiency considerations, depending on what you build on the planet and in what order. But since you can have either one Spaceport City facility, or a Spaceport facility and a Resupply facility and a City facility, for essentially the same time and cost, and they represent the same things, only arranged differently, I don't see how it would make sense to give the Spaceport Cities much advantage in performance over a city. I just gave them a +1 or so to add a little detail/interest, to represent the slight effect of convenient colocation, desirability, attention, whatever.

PvK

[/quote]

Well, just take a look at the basic history and how ports affected economy, wars, trade, science, development, basically everything. A colony with a spaceport has the opportunity to become a major interstellar hub for traffic going trough the region.

Other than that, the offered services as well. In my modified Version (i alway modify everything i get my hands on, thats where all the stupid ideas come from ), minor spaceports only give spaceports, while everything above spaceport city (excluding city and major city) gives a resupply depo as well (they also have an increasing repair capacity). This is supposed to simulate the ability to deal with the supply / maintenance of passing ships.

of course, their price is significantly higher than the price of the normal facility.

[PvK]

...
Well, just take a look at the basic history and how ports affected economy, wars, trade, science, development, basically everything. A colony with a spaceport has the opportunity to become a major interstellar hub for traffic going trough the region.
...

Spaceport access is by planet (actually by system), not by facility. Without a spaceport, zero resources, research or intel points reach the empire.

You seem to be imagining Spaceport City as a very different thing than I am.

To me, a City on a colony with a Spaceport in the system has very nearly as good spaceport access as a Spaceport City. It's just a matter of useful/optimal space/infrastructure utilization. The Spaceport City is a City with a Spaceport integrated into it from the planning stage. The effect is on the number of slots used, which is really a major effect, without altering the generation or multipliers of the city at all.

In developing a colony on an alien planet, it seems to me there would be local details, both indigenous and evolutionary as the planet goes through stages of development, where it would be more or less efficient to build population and spaceports and infrastructure. The choice between building a Spaceport City first, or building spaceport and then a city, or other combinations at different times, abstractly represent those.

However you imagine it, though, it is pretty clear that having two extra facility slots on a planet is a major advantage, especially once a multiplier is in place. On the other hand, having a space port available immediately is also a big advantage.

Perhaps what you meant is that having a spaceport on a planet, as opposed to using a spaceport from some other planet, should have an advantage for that planet? In that case, that's something I hadn't really considered, and I do think that is a good point and would be something to work into the economics. It would add an (annoying ? ) decision about whether or not you should add space ports to every planet or not. I still wouldn't make it something special for Space Port Cities, but for all spaceports - add some planetary modifiers and/or production from all spaceports. Hmm.

PvK

[PvK]

csebal said:
...This is how i think the research requirements for research facilities could be changed.

As you can, see, all the research facilities are now research lvl1, all complexes lvl2, and all megaplexes are lvl3. The industry and computers research levels allow for the improved Versions of each... this would balance out research somewhat, making it look like actual advancement, instead of receiving both complex 3 and megaplex 3 once you've researched research 3.
...

The logic of the current system is that the complexes and megacomplexes are not _better_ Versions of the standard facilities. Instead, they are massive industrial Versions of the standard facilties. That's why the costs are as they are, and why the tech requirement is mainly Industry, rather than Research. Quality versus quantity. Sophistication versus brute force. The levels required are now a bit different (more difficult), but I think I will keep the concept. If I wanted linear increase I would just have Facility I-IX require Research 1-9 or Mining 1-9.

I was thinking though of perhaps removing the ability to upgrade facilities to complexes and megacomplexes. This would allow the numbering to remain I-III for each, would I think increase the value of each choice, and would slow down the ramping up of the homeworld to all megaplexes, and generally counterbalance the other changes I have made which tend to speed things up. You'd have to pay the full megaplex cost instead of building facility I's and then upgrading. And the weird side-effect of delaying Industry research to allow continued upgrades to Complexes before investing in megaplexes would be removed. Seems like a good idea - anyone object?

PvK

[csebal]

My point is, that because spaceport Versions of colonial facilities only cost a little more than tha spaceportless one, it makes no sense to build those.

In my mind, the spaceported Version is a stepping stone towards the next bigger facility, and as such it should have a significantly increased price, and somewhat better stats (well, you are right in that the two extra facilities may be an advantage enough).

Anyway, what im arguing about is, that they should be placed further apart in price, making it actually a hard choice of what to build.