OT:US don't qualify for EU membership, don't spank children, WW2 history.

[General Woundwort]

Amazing how far a thread can go in 24 hours...

Tell me, Ruatha, have you ever read Heinlein's Starship Troopers? What do you think of the way he portrays the use of pain as a moral deterent (in both children and adults) in that novel? I will qualify my statement by saying that I don't agree with the evolutionary basis he uses for that theory, but there seems to be a recognition of the non-rationality in people that sometimes can only be restrained by non-rational means.

[tesco samoa]

an interesting book starship troopers.

that government was scary. A combination of Hitlerism and Stalinism with a little bit of Sparta.

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
Amazing how far a thread can go in 24 hours...

Tell me, Ruatha, have you ever read Heinlein's Starship Troopers? What do you think of the way he portrays the use of pain as a moral deterent (in both children and adults) in that novel? I will qualify my statement by saying that I don't agree with the evolutionary basis he uses for that theory, but there seems to be a recognition of the non-rationality in people that sometimes can only be restrained by non-rational means.

Yep. I've read it but it was so many years ago that I don't recall all the details, sorry.

When I was younger I liked Heinlein but now I don't find them entertaining, "Friday", "The cat who", "Lazarus long", "have spacesuit" etc etc, many of them where quite pubertal, (So I can see why I liked them )
"Starship troopers" was a bit different I think but still, didn't it have that boy gets attractive girl story that most Heinlein books centers around?
When I read it that was propably what interested me most I guess, will have to reread it someday. I saw the movie but it didn't remind me all that much of the book, only superficial, but then i don't recall the book all that much do I

[ July 26, 2003, 19:18: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Unknown_Enemy]

Unknown_Enemy I believe Oleg was talking about the number of missles vs SDI. Well that is what I read from it. So with not enough missles their program becomes obsolete vs SDI.

I read again Oleg's post and I am not sure.
But in doubt, I edited/deleted my previous post.

[General Woundwort]

Tesco - Are you refering to the government as portrayed in the "movie" (note scare quotes indicating my abject refusal to grant that piece of bantha fodder any positive relation to the book), or the one in the book? The government in the book was specifically stated by one of the characters to be almost identical to America's present system, except you had to be a discharged veteran to vote. What's so "totalitarian" about that?

Ruatha - First, there was no "boy gets girl" theme in Troopers. Yes, Juan was attracted to Carmen, but nothing came of it in the book and it leaves their relationship totally unresolved.

Second, to jar your memory, in Troopers corporal punishment was not only accepted and practiced in childraising, but also in the criminal justice system. Jail time for non-capital crimes was replaced with public floggings (alluded to numerous times in the book, and even endured by the main character on one occasion). The idea was that pain and humiliation were the best ways to inculcate social behavior when appeals to reason were exhausted (which Heinlein would set at a far lower bar than most today IMHO).

[Unknown_Enemy]

edited and deleted due to misanderstanding.

[ July 26, 2003, 20:11: Message edited by: Unknown_Enemy ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Yes, but the issue was very much in doubt for a while. The Germans could have beaten the Russians with a few breaks and some better decision making. It makes you wonder if the Germans had their full force attacking the Russians, instead of holding much in reserve to defend the Atlantic Wall, and the Russians had not had the support of the lend lease program if they would have been able to hold out.

Geoschmo

Germany could never win. I do not think most people on the West fully understand how strong was the determination and resolve of russians. I know it from what my granddad told - he fight from 41 to 43 (he was sapper and Last both fists when mine exploded but survived). Even if Germans made no mistakes and capture Moscow - so did Napoleon. France surrended after losing Paris, but Russia is just to big. Fall of Moscow and Leningrad would be a severe loss and death of many more millions of people but it would only prolong war not change the outcome. It is rather pointless to speculate now, history does not know "what if", that is just what I feel.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:

quote:

---

Unknown_Enemy I believe Oleg was talking about the number of missles vs SDI. Well that is what I read from it. So with not enough missles their program becomes obsolete vs SDI.

I read again Oleg's post and I am not sure.
But in doubt, I edited/deleted my previous post.

---

I missed your first Posts What I mean is if SDI can shoot down for example 100 missiles, China' nuclear arsenal would become useless, they have only dozens or so missiles. Not sure about France, it may have more missiles.

This is the major problem with SDI, IMHO. It may prompt creation of more nukes then there is now on the Earth.

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
Tesco - Are you refering to the government as portrayed in the "movie" (note scare quotes indicating my abject refusal to grant that piece of bantha fodder any positive relation to the book), or the one in the book? The government in the book was specifically stated by one of the characters to be almost identical to America's present system, except you had to be a discharged veteran to vote. What's so "totalitarian" about that?

Ruatha - First, there was no "boy gets girl" theme in Troopers. Yes, Juan was attracted to Carmen, but nothing came of it in the book and it leaves their relationship totally unresolved.

Second, to jar your memory, in Troopers corporal punishment was not only accepted and practiced in childraising, but also in the criminal justice system. Jail time for non-capital crimes was replaced with public floggings (alluded to numerous times in the book, and even endured by the main character on one occasion). The idea was that pain and humiliation were the best ways to inculcate social behavior when appeals to reason were exhausted (which Heinlein would set at a far lower bar than most today IMHO).

A few flogging would go a long way in this country. We could start with Ms. Stewart and then move on to the Enron gang. I’ll bet there would be some accounting adjustments made then, the corporate world would be scrambling to get the books corrected.

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by oleg:

quote:

---

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Yes, but the issue was very much in doubt for a while. The Germans could have beaten the Russians with a few breaks and some better decision making. It makes you wonder if the Germans had their full force attacking the Russians, instead of holding much in reserve to defend the Atlantic Wall, and the Russians had not had the support of the lend lease program if they would have been able to hold out.

Geoschmo

Germany could never win. I do not think most people on the West fully understand how strong was the determination and resolve of russians. I know it from what my granddad told - he fight from 41 to 43 (he was sapper and Last both fists when mine exploded but survived). Even if Germans made no mistakes and capture Moscow - so did Napoleon. France surrended after losing Paris, but Russia is just to big. Fall of Moscow and Leningrad would be a severe loss and death of many more millions of people but it would only prolong war not change the outcome. It is rather pointless to speculate now, history does not know "what if", that is just what I feel.

---

Sorry my friend, but the Soviets were putting out feelers for a negotiated settlement prior to Stalingrad. Had 7th Army wheeled east and crossed the river, the war in Russia would probably have ended that fall. West of the Urals would have been Germany’s and the Soviets would have kept everything to the east. Stalin would have gotten a new neck tie, and history would have been different.