A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron

[tesco samoa]

I disagree with you there.

The talisman concept in the stock mod may be flawed.

That is all.

The game itself is not flawed because of the talisman.

Playing the game under normal conditions it is not a problem.

But when you factor in fqm maps , changing the default systems to greater than 100 then yes it becomes a problem

but then your not playing stock. and your playing a modified Version of stock.

Simply put there is no way to fix it without creating other balance problems.

So why not leave it as is since we can deal with it.

This will most likely be the Last patch... Do we want effort spent in this area when we ourselves can change it ???

And there are other aspects of the game that should be looked at.

Unless of course you have a solution you would like to share with us that balances the talisman once and for all

[Fyron]

There are a lot of ways to balance the Talismans out. Make it a mount, make it not have 100% guaranteed to hit, have it make the ship it is on easier to hit, etc. That is what the beta testers are for, to test these things out before they go public.

And yes, the Talisman issue makes the stock game flawed, as does the DUCS/PPBs/APBs (though esp. the PPBs), mines, fighters, PDCs/missiles, armor, etc. There are a lot of problems that are not hard to fix and should have been fixed in a patch for the game a long, long time ago. If you do not agree with a particular balance fix, you can always go and change it back. But for the rest of us that appreciate efforts to balance the game, the changes will have been done already and not require extra modding to make it better. Again, modding is not for fixing balance problems, but for creating whole new styles of play (ie: Pirates and Nomads, Proportions, Adamant's physical/magical/organic races, sci-fi mods, etc.). And of course you will never get 100% agreeance on any balance fix. But, that is irrelevant. MM does not have to please everyone. The lack of any attempts at balance changes is IMO more displeasing overall than not having them fixed in the way you want them fixed.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
The game itself is not flawed because of the talisman.

Playing the game under normal conditions it is not a problem.

But when you factor in fqm maps , changing the default systems to greater than 100 then yes it becomes a problem

That is an excellent point Tesco. When I think about the few games that I have had problems with a talisman player, they have all been games with something unusual involved. A denser then normal map like FQM that allows the player to get established quicker, or a high tech start. In a regular stock game you just need to find the player and attack him as soon as you find him really. Cause there the research thing becomes a big deal.

The ideal is when you catch them just as they get to talisman, becasue they are normally way behind in other tech areas and haven't got the talisman fully emplyed yet. You don't even need a gang then. You could do it by yourself.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
MM does not have to please everyone.

Only you, right?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
MM does not have to please everyone.

Only you, right?

---

I am sorry for suggesting that MM operate as 90% of the industry that releases frequent update patches does in regards to those patches. Most games get frequent balance fixes in patches. Se4 has only had one or two of them, which just sucks.

[Erax]

I say, leave the Talisman the way it is. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Just so you know, Geo and I took the discussion to MSN a while ago (and he had to leave before we could finish it)...

But basically he had come to the realisation his original statement was an exageration, he is just too proud to admit it publicly.

Originally posted by Taera:
so the only real way of effectively exterminating the talisman player is ganging up on him? doesnt sound too good to me.

No, it's not the only way, but it is the most effective. The Talisman is powerful, probably too much so. A single player can beat him but it takes healthy helpings of skill and aggressivness, and a little luck too. There is no simple counter for it like there is for so many other things in the game. It takes a complete all around effort.

Geoschmo

[Gozra]

I have seen and been a part of Talisman disscusions over the years I have been playing SE. I have also watched space empire discussion evolve amoung a group of friends that I play SEIV face to face. I won't forget that one time I said what do you need extra cargo space for and my friend agreed that the cargo faclity was useless. Well now that I have played more I find that the cargo Faclity is very useful. I have also found that the game is very well blanced. The talisman is not the uber weapon that a lot of people imply. It can be defeated in many ways. I have found also that for every advantage there is a counter to that advantage.
I would suggest that Fryon play 5 people in ten games each player would get to be the Talisman player alternatly and see what type of win stats Fryon could rack up.

[Cheeze]

Without the Talisman, the Deeply Religious tech tree is interesting but not up to being a racial tech equal to the others. Given the component size, and generally in conjunction with the decreased Aggressiveness that many Religious players and races have, it goes down pretty quickly in a fight and leaves that ship next to useless. If the talisman is replaced by some component that works as an enhanced combat sensor, then the Religious tree needs other additions. I would suggest some mix of "religious" weaponry: a converter (works as Allegiance Subverter, perhaps with the same weakness or one that works on the master computer), a superior weapon destroyer (some sort of "pacifist hippie" device..hee hee) or reload limiter, and maybe a wormhole-beam style weapon or tractor/repulser. That Deeply Religious comes with no special weapons is an inherent weakness in the trait, but it also does not give that player the option having to research that tech line, and instead focus on the more standard options.

That being said, I enjoy playing with the Religious trait, irrespective of the Talisman. I do like the Religious facilities, the Nature shrine being perhaps my favorite. I love watching all my planets' resource values go up 3% on the .1 turn of the year!! I think the Time Shrine should boost more than resource production in that system. Given its description, it should raise research and intel as well!

[Fyron]

Gozra, I have played plenty of games, and I know the effects of the Talisman very well.

Can you honestly tell me that a situation in which 30 ships armed with Talismans (I forget the size of the ships) managed to defeat over 200 max-tech Dreadnoughts with only 5 losses is a well-balanced system?

[ July 18, 2003, 22:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]