Guide: LA R'lyeh or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Dreamlands

[chrispedersen]

I actually agree with the last poster that the kraken is an absolutely great pretender for underwater expansion.

As I suspected, due to geography in milkshake, I was unable to get more than 15 provinces, year one with Ghost King.

Year 2, I actually ended up significantly behind my lurker build. I think a lot will actually depend on how likely it is that someone is going to attack you in the water; and whether there are remote water provinces or not.

With Death3 on the GK build, my capital had 10K pop at the end of year 1.

With Growth +1 (Lurker build) I had 21+K. Its not only a significant difference in income, but the difference in afflictions / old age on your slave mages is pretty significant.

Also, subjectively you get different luck events.

Also, with the GK: I prefer to prophetize the scout, and send the scout and the GK off on their merry way. However, he does tend to go crazy a bit by the end of year one.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

VFB, why not Pots + returning even on a 1 s priest?

But usually, I'll just give him 5 body guards, and that will do the trick often enough to be worth the 150 gp until I can get him returning.

PoTS is Conj-3. If I don't have an S2 by then, it's a sign the RNG just absolutely hates me. Besides, if you go PoTS-Returning, you need to give the Void Gate dabbler 6 pearls, because you can get attacked in the Void Gate and also become lost all in the same turn. I'd prefer just to spend 4 keeping them alive.

Bodyguards in the Void Gate usually just means dead bodyguards for me.

[Radio_Star]

I just ran an expansion test using a Dom 9 Kraken F2A3E3D3N3 with full negative scales except Luck 3 and Magic 3. 1st year ended with 16 provinces and 9 gems per turn. Kraken attacks a province a turn out of the gate, while your starting income goes to Meteorite Guards as resources permit and Shambler Thralls! Prophetize your starting commander and on turn 2, give him the guards and thralls and hit a land province. The Kraken continued to take provinces and I started recruiting Starspawn mages until I got 2 with picks I liked (2W) and sent them out searching behind the Kraken to snag the W and S sites it would miss. I kept cranking Meteorites and Shamblers for a couple turns until my prophet swung back home, grabbed them and took a few more land provinces.

I kept expanding until I ran out of indies and at end of year two I had: 27 provinces, 4 fort/lab/temple including my cap (none of which were sites). I was a little slow on gathering research (Conj 4, Evo 2, Cons. 6 and Thau 1) but was cranking out 335 RP a turn by the end of year two. Gem-wise, I only spent gems on site searching, an empowerment for clams (I had forged 1 clam by end of year 2) and a hammer. I had 238 gems in the bank and 31 gems per turn coming in. I supplemented the Kraken/Starspawn searching with Tiamats, Arcane Probing and Dark Knowledge. I also ended year two with 31 Starspawn mages and 11 Starspawn priests.


My conclusions from this test: Early expansion should not be done in a conquer/search/conquer/search pattern. My opinion is that the pretender should carve a straight line and then, lacking new lands to conquer, turn around and site search his own tracks. Taking provinces quickly means more money sooner which means more forts, labs, mages, research and troops sooner. I also think that your national troops are viable for, and should be made all throughout, your entire expansion. The combination of a handful of Meteorites to soak an initial rush and shamblers to dish damage (supplemented later with small amount of freespawn chaff) makes for rapid expansion on land and water both. The last consideration towards shambler thralls over crab hybrids is you can suicide the thralls in your first war to avoid paying the upkeep. That's much harder to do with aquatic hybrids.

I also think that the combination of Magic 3 and Luck 3 is invaluable for the boost in random gem income. Like the expansion test Chris posted earlier, I had no death gem income whatsoever from pretender searches and Tiamats, but I was able to blow the 30+ death gems I had gotten through events on Dark Knowledges until I rolled up a small death income.

Prophetizing your starting commander and heading immediately to land lets you snag a small chunk of land and firmly entrench your dominion in it. I don't expect the idea of starting an early shooting war with Ryleh over a few dominion-addled provinces rather than just focusing on checking their dominion is a good proposition. Unless everyone decides to obliterate you because you're Ryleh, but then hey .. what's a be-tentacled encephalophage to do?

[chrispedersen]

After doing a few of these tests, I am convinced that one really does need a starting pretender - but not for the obvious reasons.
Fragility - or variability. Its simply not much fun to go through the hassle of setup and be completely nuked by aa luck event.

I'd also like to see LA-R get a little bit of mod love, if only for attention to pretenders.


Out of 10 tests, I got ruinous luck events in 4 games, even with Luck +3. Ruinous as in: destroy the lab in your capitol. Disease your pretender. Your prophet goes insane.

I'd like to propose that we standardize R. tests. I think the Milkshake map, with R starting location the middle of the eastern water is a good test.

I run with default difficulty, and 8 difficult AI's. Cap taxes at 100 except in capital.

I agree with you radio - that the god should be taking territories, *not* searching, until such time as taking territories is not feasible. Contrary to general play, I do like to go in a concentric circle with my pretender, as this does allow a ferry of troops, if necessary. It also lets you fight in dominion which keeps your hp higher.

But if you are going to do that, why not skip the elemental paths entirely and either follow him with a w3s3 or a w2n1. FFFFFSSSS allows you to claim more territory and backfll, wherease FsFs enhances gem production and is more efficient gem searching.

[vfb]

With the default sites in the game, you just need to search these paths underwater:
F1A3E3W3S3D2N2H1. You might want to adjust your Kraken's paths to take this into account, if you can afford it. It's better to wait for a W3S3 rather than manually search with a W2, because then you can skip casting Tiamat on the province later.

The advantages of conquer/search/conquer/search are (1) it's more efficient than conquer/conquer/.../conquer/search/move/search/move/search, because you skip the 'moves'; (2) you find your UW forts much earlier; (3) you can get earlier gem income; (4) you buff your HP by sitting in higher dominion before venturing off; (5) your newly taken provinces have your positive luck scales. With horrible scales, most of your income will be from your capitol in any case.

I don't like Shambler Thralls much because I think you need a critical mass to steamroll opponents or they take too many losses, and you're not going to be able to take Shambler or Sea Troll provinces with them.

[Radio_Star]

Originally Posted by vfb

With the default sites in the game, you just need to search these paths underwater:
F1A3E3W3S3D2N2H1. You might want to adjust your Kraken's paths to take this into account, if you can afford it. It's better to wait for a W3S3 rather than manually search with a W2, because then you can skip casting Tiamat on the province later.

The advantages of conquer/search/conquer/search are (1) it's more efficient than conquer/conquer/.../conquer/search/move/search/move/search, because you skip the 'moves'; (2) you find your UW forts much earlier; (3) you can get earlier gem income; (4) you buff your HP by sitting in higher dominion before venturing off; (5) your newly taken provinces have your positive luck scales. With horrible scales, most of your income will be from your capitol in any case.





edit: In an amusing turn of events, my Kraken got an amulet of the fish off a dead enemy. I kept him in the water to keep the test results sound, but it entertained me to no end.

I don't like Shambler Thralls much because I think you need a critical mass to steamroll opponents or they take too many losses, and you're not going to be able to take Shambler or Sea Troll provinces with them.

Duly noted on the underwater paths. That means you can put everything but astral on your pretender and remote search that with your starting astral income.

Conquer/search/conquer/search is certainly more efficient in the long run, but it limits you in the crucial early stages. The trade off is less early gem income vs. nearly doubling your early expansion rate. It's my opinion that the latter is the better option.

As for the shambler mass, you're right there as well. You'll find that the necessary mass is lessened considerably when the enemy AI is focused on whacking away at your Meteorites and chaff. As to the trolls in sea provinces, that's what you've got a Kraken for.


I just ran a 1 year trial with Chris's settings and results are as follows: 20 (7 land, 13 water) provinces, 18 gems per turn, 134 gems stored. Research is slow at Thau 1 and Evo 2, Conj 1 with 55 RP generated. I did manage to make 2 castle/lab/temples through, bringing my total to 3 at the end of the year.

Expansion was firing off the Kraken at a province a turn. First turn was Meteorite guards and Shamblers - no commander. Subsequent recruitment was guards and shamblers with a starspawn mage per turn until Thau 1 was reached, at which point I recruited priests until I got a 2S. (I agree that void summoning without returning is a waste of resources). I ferried recruits from the cap out to my prophetized starting commander once to replace the inevitable shambler losses.

I've got a hunch that this was a lucky test and I'll see if I can run a few more in the near future to normalize the numbers a little.

[chrispedersen]

Radio,

Would you consider trying something like a E3S3D3-5N4?

My thinking is as follows:

A. D3-5. D3 allows mound fiend boot strapping in death. D5 either gives you or improves your fear.
B. E3 Eliminates all the hassle of trying to get an E2 mage.
Allows dwarven hammer at con2 (FAST) for clams. Also summoning troll court.
C. e3s3 Allows crystal coins, crystal shields
D. S3 allows teleport. Downside: makes you vulnerable to mind duels. Don't get seen, domes?
E. N4 Useful for the bless, and for possibly getting globals.

Edit: Wish we could standardize magic sites to better compare variables

[Radio_Star]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Radio,

Would you consider trying something like a E3S3D3-5N4?

My thinking is as follows:

A. D3-5. D3 allows mound fiend boot strapping in death. D5 either gives you or improves your fear.
B. E3 Eliminates all the hassle of trying to get an E2 mage.
Allows dwarven hammer at con2 (FAST) for clams. Also summoning troll court.
C. e3s3 Allows crystal coins, crystal shields
D. S3 allows teleport. Downside: makes you vulnerable to mind duels. Don't get seen, domes?
E. N4 Useful for the bless, and for possibly getting globals.

Edit: Wish we could standardize magic sites to better compare variables

Getting into death via pretender is possible, but at best you're saving yourself 30 death or 40 water gems to empower a mage or summon a naiad. The Kraken comes with fear 0 which is really enough for the early expansion that it specializes in. E3 is an absolute must, but I'm not sure how quickly you can conceivably get into clams. You'll need some sort of empowerment and that takes time. Taking astral on the pretender is mighty tempting for the forging coins but as you mention, the downside is significant.

Dom9 with full negative scales except luck and magic + all the paths for underwater sites (F1A3E3W3S3D2N2) leaves you with 2 remaining points. It's my gut feeling that if you try to take the Kraken away from its job (early expansion and site searching) you'll end up marginalizing it. That being said, I'll futz around with some higher death (forego air, maybe? how useful are air gems to ryleh?) and possibly astral builds.

[chrispedersen]

Try playing with only the paths indicated. I view him as a vehicle for early expansion; after which searching; after which forging.

You get air on the visitor, you can empower although he will vanish. still, more generally useful, I think

[Squirrelloid]

I like the GK idea. I really haven't played enough with the GK. In part, I've been a little uncomfortable with early game SCs (in general) because I don't have a good feel for just how much opposition they can take (and getting your pretender killed in the first couple months is never a good sign).

I dislike the kraken because new paths are so expensive, iirc. I think you really want to rainbow because you will find a use for just about every gem type, so you want to be able to find some of every gem type.

I also actively like Death 3 as R'lyeh because I want to make my lands as undesirable for prospective invaders as possible. Having population just means people want your lands more. (Edit: And that's why we took Luck 3 in the first place - so we had an income source that wasn't population dependent).

How important are air gems to R'lyeh? Quite important for the move to land in the long term. You'll want access to some protection from archer fire, which means Perpetual Storm is decent, or crafting some staves of storms. (You can't reliably expect to have an A capable mage for Arrow Fend or similar in combat, so finding ways to make your A work for you more remotely is the best you can probably do). With A3 you can Staff of elemental mastery or RoW into A4 and you're in business. And while you can rely on stoneskin/ironskin/army of gold to make your troops resistant to arrowfire, these measures will stack with that and affect the entire battlefield from the start.

A4 also unlocks the Bag of Winds, which is an item with a start of combat summons. Throw one of those, a bottle of living water, and a wraith crown on a starspawn mage and you can feel free to teleport into PD or even weak armies with no other gear. (W1S3D2 and W1E2S3 preferred). Air also allows you to craft the eyes of aiming, which will help your evocation mages hit their targets. (Not that you care if you hit your chaffe - but you'd rather have killed more stuff).