Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!

[Alikiwi]

MarcoPolo, I have Haegemonia, but the damn thing locked up at a certain point early in the game :-( Yes, nice graphics. Could well be like that, zoomable, scrollable system display. Planets are likely to have dual atmospheres with a major and minor element, eg Hydrogen/Methane etc.. Colonising will be done with colony ships, possibly building a colony hub as the first building. However, we are hoping to put in an element so it is possibly for TWO races to colonise at the same time, to provide a very serious challenge or interesting co-operative situation.

Now I have a serious question to ask, or opinion sort really. There are a couple of ways that ship hulls can be looked at (well more actually). I'd like to know what players think between these two options? Both allow for multiple levels (via research) of the same hull, giving bigger sizes each time. Option a) has variable levels (written next to them).
Option b) always has 3 levels
Please tell me which option you prefer, or c) Prefer neither!
First is smallest, last biggest in each group.

A) Scout x3 Frigate x3 Destroyer x3 Cruiser x3 Battleship x3
(Carriers) Escort Carrier x5 Fleet Carrier x 5
(Bases) Space Station x5 Starbase x5
(Transports) Courier x5 Transport x4 Freighter x3

B) Explorer, Frigate, First Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer, First Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Battlecruiser, Battleship, Heavy Battleship, Juggernaut.
(Carriers) Escort Carrier, Light Carrier, Carrier
(Bases) Defense Base, Base, Starbase
(Transports) Small Transport, Transport, Heavy Transport
Rescue/Tow ship

Note b) all have 3 levels (sizes) available.
Note 2, Both also have a colony ship (3 sizes)
I would appreciate your thoughts, a), b) or OMG c) Thanks

[Timstone]

Originally Posted by Fyron

Timstone, did you see the link to the dev site Alikiwi posted earlier?

Thanks Fyron! I thought it was another project. Must have misread the posts, sorry. Woops.
I think I was too eager to see more about this project that I forgot to read the messages.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

I think the idea of races being different and more suited to one planet type than another should be explored more as a gameplay dynamic. Furthermore this should throw up more interesting possibilities to enrich the game universe, such as incompatible tech trees, preferrability to colonising certain planet types over others (perhaps having several distinct alien types eg insectoid, reptilian and mammalian/humanoid, aquatic/squid?, crystalline/silicon based life or AI from a long dead race) just examples that conjure up very distinct tech types and unique civilisation and govt styles in my mind. If you have say a race of insectoids they could be more favourable when meeting other insectoid races, or even AI civilisations for instance, given their robotic sense of order.

Another example would be.. aquatic species having a totally different tech tree to terrestrial humanoids because of the different focus and evolution of their science, by the same token it would mean aquatic races would be more suited to waterworlds anything under 30% water 70% land (depending on planet size etc) would be counterproductive to a water based lifeforms technological development and infrastructural needs. Its also important to note that stealing from such aliens if your not an aquatic species yourself will pose some major limitations. But they would be excellent in providing powerful technology in water based sciences even if your humanoid or another race that needs some tech in say enriching a planet with water or terraforming.

I would appreciate it immensely if because of this diversity, we can see some races excelling in harsher star systems that humanoids would avoid more often than not. For example a nuetron star would be lethal to humans and practically a wasteland system, but for AI it could serve up some research bonuses to its science outposts and even provide some benefits to settling on a long dead planet that circles it. This actually makes me wonder if Star Legacy will make star systems spectrally accurate ie giving different star types in the game ranging from G type stars all the way to blue giants and beyond. This would alter the options of how many planets per star type if some accuracy is to be worked into the game.

Yes, it is important and very beneficial to work elements of simulation into the game. Science fiction needs to be vaguely related to real-world science in order to be believable. The generic 'conditions' that work the same for all races in the SE series have always been an annoyance. It would be great to have even a simple system of atmosphere type, temperature range, and gravity level like Stars! had. Radiation level would be a useful fourth factor.

What about biological weapons and medical technology to treat plagues? Those should also be distinct. A virus that can kill mammals or avians living at earth-normal temperature is not even going to survive in the environment that supports silicon-based life (always very high temperatures and pressures due to the need for those condition to make complex silicon compounds similar to complex carbon life). That goes for natural (plague) or artificial (bioweapons).

So, there needs to be a sort of 'genetic code' for all species in the game, describing their characteristics. Very general things, like silicon or carbon based, and broad factors like humanoid, avian, insectoid, etc. And also distinct individual codes so you can target a species individually. At low levels, a bioweapon should only kill a single species. As biotech advances though, it could become more flexible and able kill a broader range of species if you want it to. But there should never be a universal bioweapon. There is just too much variation in the species included in a good 4X game.

[Atrocities]

Is there anything I can do to help out?

[Alikiwi]

Just a quick reply, as my question got buried. Yes temperature and gravity may be factored in but we dismissed Radiation as just not necessary and adding too much complexity to it, given numreous other factors being comsidered.
Whilst there will be 'generic' research, factors etc. across the board, there will also be trait and/or race specific things included in the stock game. Remember we will have at least one race that is Nomadic, ie, lives in space not on planets.
Having medical fields that vary due to each and every planet type (likely to be hundreds) is just not practical. Instead of one entry in a file, you'd need hundreds and then you'd need the coding to match it
But there will be virus weapons and infectious weapons....(No, not me, I didn't say that!)

At low levels, a bioweapon should only kill a single species.

Hm, thats a very interesting idea. But then if theres 15 races (which is expected), then you'd need 15 weapons! That's actually doable but I have my doubts I'd get permission, but I'll try.

For Atrocities mate, yes any HELP would be appreciated! I'll email you shortly

[MarcoPolo]

@Alikiwi...Yeh too much complexity is not necessary, its only worth integrating into the gameplay if it adds a level of detail and realism that can enhance the game experience and gameplay options.

@Baron... Alot of science fiction series come up with fantastic technologies and plotlines on how it would impact a society and what the implications of it would be as a whole. One of my favourites being the Xindi species in Star Trek Enterprise. The Xindi consisted of 6 sentient species all evolving on one planet hellbent on destroying earth. They spanned from Reptile, Insectoid, Aquatic/whale, Mammalian/yeti type, a 2nd reptilian race and an extinct avian race that was always referred to as the tragedy to the terrible legacy to the infighting many centuries ago. I to this day dont know why it was taken off the air, since every Star Trek series was flawless in their appeal. And STE was no exception, it was fresh, about the pioneering days of Starfleet and was still done with much creativity and imagination. I only regret it wasnt allowed to run its full course of 7 seasons and was ended abruptly at season 4. I have since not seen any series compare in its attention to detail and story execution. Not Stargate, Battlestar or the new V series, although they have their own styles and narratives. Its nothing compared to ST. Im hoping Star Legacy will be the flagship and example of games to come of this genre.

[Xrati]

A) Scout x3 Frigate x3 Destroyer x3 Cruiser x3 Battleship x1
BB's don't need expanded versions

(Carriers) Escort Carrier x5 Fleet Carrier x 5
Escort Carriers x3, Carriers x3, Assult Carriers x1(maybe 2)

(Bases) Space Station x5 Starbase x5
Could be expanded through the use of module attachments.

(Transports) Courier x5 Transport x4 Freighter x3
OK, but larger versions will always be the default build.

I like A
B) Explorer, Frigate, First Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer, First Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser,
Battlecruiser, Battleship, Heavy Battleship, Juggernaut.
(Carriers) Escort Carrier, Light Carrier, Carrier
(Bases) Defense Base, Base, Starbase
(Transports) Small Transport, Transport, Heavy Transport
Rescue/Tow ship

[MarcoPolo]

@Alikiwi> I like A as its well rounded and kept simple. But if the battles are to be waged in a (Gratuitous Space Battles format) then B is my winner. As it would allow for more weapon/sheilds/crew configurations as better ship hulls were researched by the player. Alot of custom ship fans would welcome this too who are into GSB and its modding ships for battle playability. And you could allow for disfavourable ship conditions according to the battle locations ie nebulas, meteor storms, gravity anomalies to handicap certain ship types so as not to create a race for biggest ship takes all kind of scenario. This would keep things from becoming repititious. Therefore maintaining a sizzors paper rock style battle strategy.

I also welcome the 2 species possibility on a single planet. Its makes for interesting diplomacy options. But can i suggest there being resource ratio information of how much each player is using of SAID planets resources? This could change as one population grew at the expense of another, or if one population was more politically stable (ie better entertainment facilities, less revolt)

Also would populating the moons of nearby planets coinhabited by 2 species be an option? Im wondering how cohabitation on a world with 2 different races with radically different requirements would happen? Say a methane breather vs an oxygen breather. Perhaps one a methane world the oxygen breather would be at a disadvantage since they would have to build domes but also the same would be if the situations were reversed and a methane breather wished to colonise a oxygen/nitrogen dominant planet.

Im putting up all sorts of scenarios in my mind, but the motivation for either race to colonise a planet not natively favourable to them would only happen for resources. My mind boggles on ways to acheive 2 races on a planet sharing resources. Perhaps there could be a population cap or population slots that gradually fill up as each race reaches their next population level. Ulimately creating a race to fill up the planets capacity before the other. However you could introduce strong ecological penalties if its done too carelessly and not sustainably or with little thought to energy and agriculture as a disincentive to just go out and horde worlds willy nilly.

Also non natives to that planet type and hence dome builders would grow at a handicapped rate since their colonising a world that neither favors them or directly promotes their race type. These handicaps would be less according to how close they are in similarity to the native race.

Just a thought...but will there be planet disasters? like comets or meteors, or radiation solar flares, that could throw a planet into a wasteland for a few decades? or cap its agricultural and population capacities? Just wondering, also an incentive could be to allow technologies that lessen this like biospheres and planetary sheilding techs or options to build underground or underwater as well. Providing this...or perhaps a slot system of colonisation would allow a typical terrestrial planet to have 5 default slots (representative of 5 regions or continents) later each slot would be able to open an underground or subterranean expandable slot for urban centres immune to solar or planetwide catastrophes. Or in the same vein after researching aquatic colonisation perhaps an ocean slot that would provide more agriculture and population options (of course on worlds with more than 50% water... less water may mean only 1 or 2 of the 5 slots would allow for such an option at all). In essence having 5 slots may allow for 5 races to contest a planet or cohabit one too, and peacefully if diplomatic and commercial perks are offered in the game as incentives. Of course early in the game uncontested planets would gradually fill up their respective slots with the natural progression and development of the native population. Slots could be unique in science/population/agriculture/commercial output depending on the race and planet type it is inhabiting... small barren planets would have less slots perhaps 2 or 3 while gas giants would have many more than terrestrial worlds but all geared towards mining/science with very little population perks. Even Stars could have slots dedicated to science/strategic defense or mining depending on the star type.

Science could be perked at 2 different rates, one being for military science and the other domestic. What I mean is that military scientific discoveries and their rates of growth would be proportional to the military resources gained and developed via slots in say nearby gas giants or debris fields (asteriod belts) that offer slots favourable with military perks. This would provide an incentive to grab and develop military science posts or military installations around gas giants, asteroid belts or stars as well, and not just make the game winnable by conquering planets. Domestic science would have more perks around terrestrial planets, with perhaps a space slot opening up for each terrestrial slot that is upgraded by a space elevator of sorts. Providing more space commercial options and improving the population standards of living (ie improving mortality and food output).(It would be possible to see entire star sytems being exploited for military purposes only if say a certain race cannot successfully utilise the terrestrial planets for population bonuses or is not worth the effort. Eg a rock/silicon based life form that gains huge population perks from volcanic planets, hence it will gain next to nothing on a serene waterworld with no volcanoes present. However an aquatic species might move in and not feel threatened to develop that systems population capacities, given it is not at war with the silicates and may even gain commercial perks if trading with the silicates in its vicinity.

Worlds that are already inhabited by primitive races or non space faring could offer domestic research bonuses for observing a prewarp species, by setting up a space outpost there. Or covertly inhabiting that world by means of its underground population slots, or a space slot that would be available initially. Perhaps setting up a nearby lunar science colony could also benefit with domestic science bonuses. However an agressive race could gain more military bonuses if enslaving that world and exploiting the inhabitants. Another bonus to taking the evil route would be as a food source if you are a reptilian or insectoid race bent on destruction that gains these perks from most forms of life that are not yet developed.

Well just some ideas, feel free to muse some more about them.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally Posted by Alikiwi

Just a quick reply, as my question got buried. Yes temperature and gravity may be factored in but we dismissed Radiation as just not necessary and adding too much complexity to it, given numreous other factors being comsidered.
Whilst there will be 'generic' research, factors etc. across the board, there will also be trait and/or race specific things included in the stock game. Remember we will have at least one race that is Nomadic, ie, lives in space not on planets.
Having medical fields that vary due to each and every planet type (likely to be hundreds) is just not practical. Instead of one entry in a file, you'd need hundreds and then you'd need the coding to match it
But there will be virus weapons and infectious weapons....(No, not me, I didn't say that!)

Hm, thats a very interesting idea. But then if theres 15 races (which is expected), then you'd need 15 weapons! That's actually doable but I have my doubts I'd get permission, but I'll try.

Not planet type, species. Each species in the game should have a unique biological ID. What's complicated about that? All you need is a bitfield, code it as a hexidecimal number and it can be put into a text configuration file. Yes, you would need to research medical tech specific to a given race in order to cure their plagues, and yes you would have to research a specific weapon then load that specific weapon to attack a specific race. That's called realism! It might be complicated to setup but no more so than many other options in the game. Using it should not be complicated at all.

But then upgrading your ships should not be complicated either. One of the biggest failings of all 4X games I know of has been the cruddy interface. SE III was actually pretty good for the options it had available. But MM got intimidated by people saying "spreadsheets in space" and started trying to make the games 'look cool' instead of play well. I hope there will not be any ambition to 'look cool' and people will just make the game easy to use -- meaning use well known GUI conventions without trying to jazz them up and make them 'unique'.

How about drop down boxes for all those bioweapon options? As I recall there is an ability in SE5 to make stellar manipulations devices repairable only by spaceyards. (Or was that not actually implemented?) The same thing could be done for the bioweapon options. You can build a launcher into your design and then only set them at a spaceyard. This would keep you from having to refit every time you wanted to use a different weapon, and would be useful for more than bioweapons! With this ability you could finally separate missile launcher tech from missile warhead tech. Launchers could have improvements in speed or capacity or launcher size, warheads in damage amount and/or type. Install a given launcher and then you can select your missile type when a spaceyard is present.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

@Baron... A lot of science fiction series come up with fantastic technologies and plotlines on how it would impact a society and what the implications of it would be as a whole. One of my favourites being the Xindi species in Star Trek Enterprise. The Xindi consisted of 6 sentient species all evolving on one planet hellbent on destroying earth. They spanned from Reptile, Insectoid, Aquatic/whale, Mammalian/yeti type, a 2nd reptilian race and an extinct avian race that was always referred to as the tragedy to the terrible legacy to the infighting many centuries ago. I to this day dont know why it was taken off the air, since every Star Trek series was flawless in their appeal. And STE was no exception, it was fresh, about the pioneering days of Starfleet and was still done with much creativity and imagination. I only regret it wasnt allowed to run its full course of 7 seasons and was ended abruptly at season 4. I have since not seen any series compare in its attention to detail and story execution. Not Stargate, Battlestar or the new V series, although they have their own styles and narratives. Its nothing compared to ST. Im hoping Star Legacy will be the flagship and example of games to come of this genre.

Star Trek is a very bad example to use for "science and technology" in fiction. Trek is very arbitrary and inconsistent. They alter the science any time they want to make a story work. I would say Trek is actually not science fiction most of the time. It's more like soap opera with some techo-trappings. That's probably the major reason it has lost its lock on the market and now has so many competitors.